- luv-talk - luv.asn.au

Mike Godwin comments on Australian politics
by Russell Coker 04 Mar '14

04 Mar '14

https://twitter.com/JustJen64/status/439384937435635712/photo/1 Now it's official, you can't cite Godwin's law as a reason for not comparing the Australian government policy (and the rampant cowardice among Australians which led to it) to what happened in Nazi Germany. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/

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Re: [luv-talk] Subject: Re: Mike Godwin comments on Australian politics
by Petros 04 Mar '14

04 Mar '14

From: "Tim Josling" <tim.josling(a)gmail.com> > I knew someone who worked for him and he did not notice any signs of > mental illness. I'm not sure that failure to comply with white > collar standards of "personal hygiene" is a very strong sign of > mental illness. Inability to do so might be, but I have no evidence > he was actually unable to care for himself. He seemed to be able to > run very successful farming enterprises. In the farming community we > ran into quite a few people who were unusual characters. Some were > dysfunctional, others were not. I can second that. I knew a maths professor who made a few millions on the share market. He spent half of every year in Sao Paolo, running around in old jeans and casual shirts. Nobody suspected him being wealthy and he felt safe (while the usual "rich person" lives in gated communities and does not open the window when driving) At the end you can sit on one chair only at the time. Can we sidetrack a bit further? ;-) Regards Peter

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Re: [luv-talk] recommendation for a good NBN router
by Rohan McLeod 03 Mar '14

03 Mar '14

cory seligman wrote: > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 5:59 PM, Rohan McLeod <rhn(a)jeack.com.au > <mailto:rhn@jeack.com.au>> wrote: > > cory seligman wrote: > > I'll be getting my NBN connected in a few weeks and it seems like a > > good time to retire my old WRT54G routers. > ...........snip > Just out of interest: > 1/ Your ISP won't support any form of Linux ? > 2/ so their NBN router preferences are not relevant ? > > > My ISP is iiNet. They want to sell me one of their BoB router/modems. > That's fine, but they don't support GigE and the default config is > pretty insecure. I reckon for the similar money I can get a router > with better radio performance and GigE that can be configured to have > no known backdoors. > > iiNet have been pretty good about support. I've been using an > "unsupported" ADSL modem for years. The only time I ever had a problem > I rang them an explained what I had and the tech acknowledged that the > problem must be at their end and fixed it anyways. When I had one of the early NBN accounts, the iPrimus tech nearly had a nervous breakdown, when I finally convinced him there was no phone line input just an ethernet connection to the NBN box; wasn't on his script !......hopefully the scripts are better now :-] regards Rohan Mcleod

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Re: [luv-talk] Refugees (was Re: Vale Nelson Mandela)
by Lev Lafayette 03 Mar '14

03 Mar '14

On Tue, February 25, 2014 2:17 pm, Tim Josling wrote: > The url does indeed contain the word "policies" but the headings on the page are "Principles" and "Aims" and it is indeed a *very* high level document. With some familiarity with policy statements of political parties between elections you would become aware that high level statements are the norm. For example (and this was also the result of a 3 second google search), the ALP 2011 National Platform is available here: http://www.alp.org.au/national_platform >> 1. What measures would you put in place to discourage people arriving by > boat or plane, if any? > Not clear, though they state that "mandatory and/or indefinite detention" > would be eliminated. [What is non-mandatory detention by the way? Would they retain <voluntary> detention? Or do they really mean automatic?] Not > clear if carriers would still be penalized for bring in people without visas. See also Q5 below. The term "mandatory detention" has been used in public discourse for the past fifteen years. Either you're being facetious or display a rather surprising lack of knowledge on the subject. As for the Greens actual policy to discourage people arriving by boat you can see that they propose more funding for UNHCR centres in the region. http://www.adambandt.com/saferpathways Again, this took a couple of seconds to find, rather than the "hours and hours" of searching, as claimed. I suppose the difference is that I know what I'm looking for. >> 2. What change would you make to the refugee quota? Would there still be > a limit? > There would still be a quota, but it would be increased to an > *unspecified* > number. Again, see the same URL. http://www.adambandt.com/saferpathways >> 3. Would the arrivals get work permits? How would they be supported if > they did not get work? > " Asylum seekers to have work rights, and access to social security, legal > representation, interpreters, health services, case management, and appropriate education for the duration of their assessment." Presumably this is after the initial checks mentioned in Q5 below. No indication what > happens to those who are rejected as asylum seekers. > Not fully answered. I think that is disingenuous on your part. People who arrive and apply for asylum and are found not to be refugees are not receiving work permits. >> 4. To what degree would you vet arrivals to see if a) they are 'genuine' > refugees b) They are criminals, terrorists, or fanatics of one sort or another c) They have communicable illnesses? What level of appeals would be > possible? Would we pay for legal aid throughout a long-drawn-out legal process? There are already extremely well-known processes in place for this. >> 5. When people arrive would they be detained or monitored? Describe these > arrangements. Would this depend on the answers to the previous question? "Once initial health, security and identity checks are completed within a > maximum of 30 days, asylum seekers who arrive without a valid visa to be accommodated in the community, unless otherwise ordered by a court, with periodic judicial review thereafter." Note that this seems to contradict (1) above, in that it seems to imply some form of temporary detention, and > perhaps permanent detention for those who fail security etc checks. They imply that people can be detained with court approval. But not very clear. > Not clearly answered. Seems pretty clear to anyone else. >> 6. What would you do with people who are not 'genuine' refugees, or who > are otherwise undesirable? Would you deport or detain them? > " fair and appropriate accommodation" would be provided. Not clear if they > are allowed to work or not. > Not clearly answered. People who are not refugees are sent back to their country of origin. That is a standard procedure. >> 7. What do you do with people whose status is uncertain? People arrive > without documentation, they may lie or exaggerate their predicament. You cannot exactly ask, say, the Iranian government "It is true that if this person were returned then you would persecute them?" and expect a useful answer. > There is no explicit description of what happens to people whose status is > or remains uncertain. > Not clearly answered. Again, this is a procedural matter, not a policy position. You do not seem to acknowledge the difference between the two. >> 8, Would you limit where people could live and what work they could do? > How would you enforce this? > "Greater incentives for rural and regional distribution of refugees and immigrants using successful models for settlement." This is rather mealy-mouthed and it is hard to know whether any restrictions would apply. > Not clearly answered. Clearly answered. They are not providing special limits, rather they are providing incentives. >> 9. Would you devote any extra resources to projects such as solving world > hunger (as suggested above) **as part of the solution**? > There is no mention of increased foreign aid within the page referred to. > But elsewhere they propose a significant increase in foreign aid. Not clearly answered. That's about as clearly answered as anyone could ask for. >> 1. What measures would you put in place to discourage people arriving by > boat or plane, if any? > Significant penalties for carriers who bring in people without visas. Talk about "not clearly answered". Tell us what the current penalties are and whether or not you think they are significant. > Mandatory detention of unsolicited arrivals until a) They are found to be > refugees per the UN definition, and b) They reach the top of the refugee queue. Please tell us about this queue of which you speak. >> 2. What change would you make to the refugee quota? Would there still be > a limit? > Increase to 100,000 at the expense of family reunion quota and the lower end of skilled migration. Apart from the fact that asylum seekers who arrive by boat are already prohibited on making family reunion applications... (c.f., http://www.immi.gov.au/FAQs/Pages/how-can-i-propose-an-immediate-family-mem…) .. what numbers of people do you think migrate to Australia under family reunion and skilled migration. Why do you want to reduce these anyway? (snip until you've done further research on the matter). -- Lev Lafayette, BA (Hons), GradCertTerAdEd (Murdoch), GradCertPM, MBA (Tech Mngmnt) (Chifley) mobile: 0432 255 208 RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt

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Re: [luv-talk] Mike Godwin comments on Australian politics
by Petros 03 Mar '14

03 Mar '14

Quoting "Russell Coker" <russell(a)coker.com.au> > https://twitter.com/JustJen64/status/439384937435635712/photo/1 > > Now it's official, you can't cite Godwin's law as a reason for not comparing > the Australian government policy (and the rampant cowardice among Australians > which led to it) to what happened in Nazi Germany. The article is referring to: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/australians-are-wimps-for-allowing-… It mentions some inconvenient truth about the riots too. She mentions Australia since 2001. It includes Howard, Rudd, Gillard, Abbott. Amazingly (or not) the Herald Sun I browsed through in a cafe last weekend did not even mention the topic. It does not seem to exist in Murdoch world. Horror in Murdoch world are deranged ex-husbands and neglected toddlers (or something like that, I did not bother to read the details of their head story) Gleichschaltung of media (getting them "in sync" wih the government) was part of the Nazi strategy. The Liberals attacks on ABC and SBS (the Victorian Liberals have the privatisation officially on the agenda) are hitting the same mark. With the dominance of Murdoch in print and with privately owned (and right-wing biased) Seven, Nine and Ten on TV they would have the Gleichschaltung. Then they could go away with everything the next 1000 years.. BTW: I find the preference system broken if my vote is finally collected in a Liberal or Labor bucket and I do not have an option to say: Never ever in this one! It is part of what makes them so complacent and opportunistic. They do not have to care for my vote, they get it at the end anyway.. Anyway, I was in a concert last week with a fake Abbott on stage barking something like: "Go back to where you come from! Go back to Antarctica! These are our shores!" before he was beheaded. It was an American band. That's what they think of us.. And for sure: Andrew Bolt took offense! http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/… God save the Queen! (the Johnny Rotten version;-) Peter

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Re: [luv-talk] [luv-announce] LUV Main March 2014 Meeting: Whistleblowers + Vagrant
by Rohan McLeod 28 Feb '14

28 Feb '14

Les Kitchen (LUV) wrote: > Start: Mar 4 2014 19:00 > End: Mar 4 2014 21:00 > Location: The Buzzard Lecture Theatre. Evan Burge Building, > Trinity College, Melbourne University Main Campus, Parkville. > Link: http://luv.asn.au/meetings/map > > Suelette Dreyfus: Whistleblowers > > Colby Swandale: Vagrant > > Suelette Dreyfus is a Research Fellow in the Department of > Computing and Information Systems at the University of > Melbourne. Her research interests include: Digital > whistleblowing; Health informatics; Computer security and > hacking; Organisational change; Social media for school > education. See > http://www.cis.unimelb.edu.au/people/staff.php?person_ID=7291. > She was a keynote speaker at this year's Linux Conference > Australia, http://linux.conf.au/media/news. > Curiously no mention of her as the famous author of: "Underground: Tales of Hacking, Madness and Obsession on the Electronic Frontier" ........with research by Julian Assange regards Rohan McLeod

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1st batch FleaFPGA orders deadline 2014 March 1st (Saturday)
by David E Payne 27 Feb '14

27 Feb '14

I fear Valentin, (in Melbourne's northern suburbs), will end up having to hand-make a lot of FleaFPGAS - if he can't get 100 orders he would have been better of with 10-20. http://hackaday.com/2014/02/14/introducing-the-fleafpga-experimenters-board/ Dav(e/id/o/y)

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Re: [luv-talk] Refugees (was Re: Vale Nelson Mandela)
by Petros 26 Feb '14

26 Feb '14

Quoting "Tim Josling" <tim.josling(a)gmail.com> > From: Petros > > >> Quoting "Tim Josling" > >> >>> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Peter wrote: >>> >>> > >>> 1. What measures would you put in place to discourage people >>> arriving by boat or plane, if any? >> >> What we do now is not "dicouraging" - we are plainly refuse to help >> others and push them away. >> >> From personal experience: besides of shooting people there is not >> much you can do. I know an East German woman who was smuggled by bad >> bad people (the West Germans called them "freedom helpers" then - it >> is all a matter of perspective isn't;-) She was not in material >> strife, not harmed in physical ways etc. - she was just sick of living >> under Communism. >> >> The proposal above includes a camp for screening etc - it is not a >> free ticket. >> > > You did not provide an answer to the question. I did. You just do not like the answer. People from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Sri Lanka etc. are not fleeing for fun - they escape war, were tortured, have often lost relatives etc. The only deterrence is making life more miserable than in a war. Finally killing them. That what we start to do now. It is a crime. Full stop. Regards Peter

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Re: [luv-talk] Refugees (was Re: Vale Nelson Mandela)
by Petros 26 Feb '14

26 Feb '14

Quoting "Tim Josling" <tim.josling(a)gmail.com> > From: Petros >> Since when is the Migration Department responsible for running the >> navy? What is the Department for Defence for? What is that dude of a >> general standing next to Scotty when he does not report about his >> service for our glorious country? >> >> It is a shame that this country not even sees how pathetic this show >> is. Monty Python is just half as funny as this. >> >> Well, Hitler was funny too. Just watch Charlie Chaplin. >> > As an aside, Chaplin actually got into a bit of trouble for that > movie. It confirmed in the minds of some that he was a leftist ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Dictator#Reception ) > > " During its production the British government announced that it > would prohibit its exhibition in the United Kingdom in keeping with > its appeasement policy concerning Nazi Germany." > > Of course things changed shortly thereafter as views about Hitler changed. Well, it just shows that so called Realpolitik does not want to know about moral standards. Last week a man died on Manus Island. His name is Reza Berat, he is a Kurdish refugee coming from Iran. Here some background (Wikipedia). (By accident I know someone from the similar background who had some horrible years before his family was safe, finally.) "In modern times the Feylis have been subject to state persecution.[6][7] They are considered as a stateless people, with both Iran and Iraq claiming they are citizens of the other country." More detail here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feylis The riots were more or less known to happen. I am not the only one who is not surprised. http://www.smh.com.au/national/tensions-at-detention-centre-had-been-brewin… And, having not dealt with the situation, it will happen again. In a bizarre twist there is a new 20 month contract to run the centre with the same staff responsible for the dealings. Worth 1.2 billion Dollars. Australia is disregarding its obligations, breaks International law and is responsible for death, serious injuries and systematic deterioration of physical and mental health of people fleeing persecution and war, including women and children. We are responsible for it. If that isn't a disgrace - I do not know what is. Australia is run by a bunch of bullies and many people behave like it: All fine as long as it does not him them. Just have a five bedroom house with three toilets for family synchrone shitting. And encourage the bully to hit others. Regards Peter

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Re: [luv-talk] Refugees (was Re: Vale Nelson Mandela)
by Tim Josling 25 Feb '14

25 Feb '14

From: Petros >Quoting "Tim Josling" > >> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Peter wrote: >> >> >> 1. What measures would you put in place to discourage people >> arriving by boat or plane, if any? > >What we do now is not "dicouraging" - we are plainly refuse to help >others and push them away. > > From personal experience: besides of shooting people there is not >much you can do. I know an East German woman who was smuggled by bad >bad people (the West Germans called them "freedom helpers" then - it >is all a matter of perspective isn't;-) She was not in material >strife, not harmed in physical ways etc. - she was just sick of living >under Communism. > >The proposal above includes a camp for screening etc - it is not a >free ticket. > You did not provide an answer to the question. >> 2. What change would you make to the refugee quota? Would there >> still be a limit? > >Yes, it is. > >The only rub: the one arriving have to e dealt with. This is part of >our obligations - at the moment a legal one we do not fulfil. > You did not answer the question. What would you change the quota to? >> 3. Would the arrivals get work permits? How would they be supported >> if they did not get work? > >Of course they should work - it is in their and our interest. I >mentioned that. > We have an answer - 1/3! >> 4. To what degree would you vet arrivals to see if a) they are >> 'genuine' refugees b) They are criminals, terrorists, or fanatics of >> one sort or another c) They have communicable illnesses? What level >> of appeals would be possible? Would we pay for legal aid throughout >> a long-drawn-out legal process? > >The majority of people arriving here are recognised by legal processes >as genuine. > >We just stopped processing them - ignoring our obligations. > You did not answer the question. >> 5. When people arrive would they be detained or monitored? Describe >> these arrangements. Would this depend on the answers to the previous >> question? > >I described them in detail above. > >>> Instead of locking up people (please explain what we will do with >>> them in Nauru or PNG?) infinitely, we can establish a routine and >>> timeframe which is balanced on needs to run security checks, as >>> well as helping refugees to adapt and train to fit into our >>> society. Running the internal affairs while in the camp (e.g. cook >>> for themself, build houses etc.) helps them - and maks it cheaper >>> for us too. > What does this mean? What you are saying is that we could establish a policy and it would be good. That is not the same as actually stating your policy. >If we aim for all peopke being processed in a year - that would give >them hope and us time to screen. > You cannot apply an arbitrary limit to a legal and investigative process. This is nonsense. There will be people whose cases are not determined within 12 months. Then what? >> 6. What would you do with people who are not 'genuine' refugees, or >> who are otherwise undesirable? Would you deport or detain them? >please explain what we will do with >>> them in Nauru or PNG? > >As done before. We send them back. OK. We now have two answers - 2/6. > >> 7. What do you do with people whose status is uncertain? People >> arrive without documentation, they may lie or exaggerate their >> predicament. You cannot exactly ask, say, the Iranian government "It >> is true that if this person were returned then you would persecute >> them?" and expect a useful answer. > >As Trent wrote, there will be false positives. I mean, even I sneaked >in this country - who knows what I did in the past? False papers >happen for 1000 years. It is the job of the processing parties to >figure out - it has done before and until now we did it more or less >right, the Opera House is still standing;-) > No answered. >> 8, Would you limit where people could live and what work they could >> do? How would you enforce this? > >We have that in place, we have regional visas. > >Every employer asks for the visa, and Centrelink too, I believe. > No answered. Saying <we have that now> does not answer the question of what is your policy recommendation. >> 9. Would you devote any extra resources to projects such as solving >> world hunger (as suggested above) as part of the solution? > >Well, the current government thinks we are doing so badly that we have >to slash International aid.. > >There is a problem with International aid - it is subject of being >purpose-driven and feeds corrupt regimes. > >Personally I believe it is better to donate on a personal level to an >organisation you trust. > >> Then you should be able to have a chance of estimating the impact on >> the existing occupants of Australia. In particular, impacts on >> government finances, the job market, funding requirements for >> infrastructure, and social impacts. > >Half-way self-serving community camps, regional development visas >(taking in account "our needs" etc. are helping us to cope with the >costs we have now. > >I mean, we are dealing with the Navy, with lifeboats, financing camps >in other countries - do you think that is cheap? > >It is not. Curiously nobody asks how much we spend on this. And you >know what answer you what get from Shire Scotty. "Operational matters" >- we do not even have the right to know. > >> I would suggest that you policy proposals are well short of what is >> needed, in the sense that a hill of beans is short of the Himalayas. > >Well, that's what I can illustrate (to give you an idea) in a few minutes. > >I asked you before: > >>> please explain what we will do with them [refugees] in Nauru or PNG? > >Can you please answer one question? Thank you. > See my previous email. They would be detained in spartan conditions until they reach the top of the queue (if they are accepted refugees) or they are repatriated. >> Again I ask if people are serious - as opposed to moral posturing - >> why don't they come up with a specific proposal and show us the >> analysis of its impact? > >Did you do one for the politics in place? > By definition the current policy is defined by what is currently being done. I can reverse engineer this as well as anyone. It is much the same as my policy with the exception a) more legal aid in the current policy b) a lower quota than I propose. >The one we have in place is above scrutiny, an operation where the >government cries foul if someone wants to report etc. - do not ask >questions! > >Since when is the Migration Department responsible for running the >navy? What is the Department for Defence for? What is that dude of a >general standing next to Scotty when he does not report about his >service for our glorious country? > >It is a shame that this country not even sees how pathetic this show >is. Monty Python is just half as funny as this. > >Well, Hitler was funny too. Just watch Charlie Chaplin. > As an aside, Chaplin actually got into a bit of trouble for that movie. It confirmed in the minds of some that he was a leftist ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Dictator#Reception) "During its production the British government announced that it would prohibit its exhibition in the United Kingdom in keeping with its appeasement <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement> policy concerning Nazi Germany." Of course things changed shortly thereafter as views about Hitler changed. >The politics in place are made up to buy votes and to distract from >other problems. > >Thinking about Corby and the boats may prevent you from thinking why, >finally, our industry falls apart while some are getting fatter and >fatter. > >But the falling apart is good for Liberals and fat cats: at Ford and >Toyota and Alcoa and SPC the workers have the smell of unions on them. > >Well, it is as having a fly in your ear. Take the gun and shoot the fly! > >That's how this country gets governed. With a foresight of three millimetres. > I could not find an answer to the question among all that. Plenty of abuse of the stupidity and evil of governments, the Australian people, evil corporations etc. This suggests you would not increase official aid "Personally I believe it is better to donate on a personal level to an organisation you trust." so I will give you 1/2 for this questions. >Good luck with this >Pete You scored ... 2.5 out of 9. About the same as the "Greens". I believe that is a person is genuinely interested in helping the needy of the world they will a) Donate significant resources of their own ( http://80000hours.org/what-is-an-effective-altruist) to that cause, and b) If they believe Australia's refuges policy is significant in this regard they will have in mind a well thought out policy whose implications they have considered. On the other hand, a person who is more interested in status whoring will a) devote large fractions of their postings to denunciations of the evils of other people, and b) Be less interested in articulating and analyzing an actual policy proposal. Applying Bayes's theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes'_theorem) to most posts on this topic, the probabilities have shifted more to the latter hypothesis in my view. Sorry for the slow reply. I have had some health issues in my family and other technical problems, to wit an exploding PC. Also I was trying to find a way to get people to actually articulate their policies with no success. Tim Josling

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