I'm hoping someone here may have some insight to cabling responsibilities under the NBN and also my expected rights under the Customer Service Guarantee (CSG). I was talking to Internode today about transitioning to the NBN and had a few surprises: 1. I will now be responsible for the cabling from my wall socket to some as yet undefined location in the street (sales guy couldn't tell me where that was). 2. I have to waive my rights to the CSG. I have had two occasions in the last year when I've had to call Telstra to come and fix my line issues (which they did at no cost to me). What can I expect under the NBN? -- Tom Robinson 19 Thomas Road Mobile: +61 4 3268 7026 Healesville, VIC 3777 Home: +61 3 5962 4543 Australia GPG Key: 8A4CB7A7 CONFIDENTIALITY: Copyright (C). This message with any appended or attached material is intended for addressees only and may not be copied or forwarded to or used by other parties without permission.
Tom Robinson via luv-main wrote:
I'm hoping someone here may have some insight to cabling responsibilities under the NBN and also my expected rights under the Customer Service Guarantee (CSG).
I was talking to Internode today about transitioning to the NBN and had a few surprises:
1. I will now be responsible for the cabling from my wall socket to some as yet undefined location in the street (sales guy couldn't tell me where that was). 2. I have to waive my rights to the CSG.
I have had two occasions in the last year when I've had to call Telstra to come and fix my line issues (which they did at no cost to me). What can I expect under the NBN?
Can you be a little more explicit as to whether it is fibre to the node (the street box only), or fibre to the house ? Anyway it is a most unusual situation for the householder to complete, the connection from the node to the house; NBN paid Telstra much money; so they could save themselves that expense and use Telstra's shaggy old wires /start rant and turn a promising optical fibre-network; into a mediocre piece of crap.....gees thanks Malcom ! end rant / Normally the NBN will not deal directly with customers, all the support is expected to occur through the relevant ISP. Will Internode be your ISP when you connect via the NBN ? regards Rohan McLeod
On 26/06/18 00:03, Rohan McLeod wrote:
Tom Robinson via luv-main wrote:
I'm hoping someone here may have some insight to cabling responsibilities under the NBN and also my expected rights under the Customer Service Guarantee (CSG).
I was talking to Internode today about transitioning to the NBN and had a few surprises:
1. I will now be responsible for the cabling from my wall socket to some as yet undefined location in the street (sales guy couldn't tell me where that was). 2. I have to waive my rights to the CSG.
I have had two occasions in the last year when I've had to call Telstra to come and fix my line issues (which they did at no cost to me). What can I expect under the NBN?
Can you be a little more explicit as to whether it is fibre to the node (the street box only), or fibre to the house ? Anyway it is a most unusual situation for the householder to complete, the connection from the node to the house; NBN paid Telstra much money; so they could save themselves that expense and use Telstra's shaggy old wires /start rant and turn a promising optical fibre-network; into a mediocre piece of crap.....gees thanks Malcom ! end rant / Normally the NBN will not deal directly with customers, all the support is expected to occur through the relevant ISP. Will Internode be your ISP when you connect via the NBN ?
My apologies. We're getting FTTN with VDSL. The Internode sales guy insisted that I would have to hire my own cabling contractor should there be any issues with cabling between my house and the Node. I tried to explain to him that currently Telstra maintain the wires all the way to the socket on the wall but he kept saying that they wouldn't do that. Well, it's not quite true as some of the wires are now actually NBN wires but when the Telstra Tech's have been here before to fix issues and they test all the bits between the socket on the wall down to the node and then to the exchange. <rant id=tom>This whole experience has just confirmed my all my misgivings for the current rollout and that the current NBN scheme is a huge smelly pile of donkey donuts</rant> Yes, Internode may be my choice for ISP. They are my current ADSL provider. -- Tom Robinson 19 Thomas Road Mobile: +61 4 3268 7026 Healesville, VIC 3777 Home: +61 3 5962 4543 Australia GPG Key: 8A4CB7A7 CONFIDENTIALITY: Copyright (C). This message with any appended or attached material is intended for addressees only and may not be copied or forwarded to or used by other parties without permission.
On 26/06/18 00:20, Tom Robinson via luv-main wrote:
On 26/06/18 00:03, Rohan McLeod wrote:
/start rant and turn a promising optical fibre-network; into a mediocre piece of crap.....gees thanks Malcom ! end rant /
Not a truer conclusion.
Normally the NBN will not deal directly with customers, all the support is expected to occur through the relevant ISP. Will Internode be your ISP when you connect via the NBN ?
My apologies. We're getting FTTN with VDSL.
The Internode sales guy insisted that I would have to hire my own cabling contractor should there be any issues with cabling between my house and the Node. I tried to explain to him that currently Telstra maintain the wires all the way to the socket on the wall but he kept saying that they wouldn't do that. Well, it's not quite true as some of the wires are now actually NBN wires but when the Telstra Tech's have been here before to fix issues and they test all the bits between the socket on the wall down to the node and then to the exchange.
With FTTN, you will have a copper pair to your home or the MDF (if you have an MDF -- essentially a termination point other than a phone socket). Your copper line will pass the NBN data to the VDSL modem. The NBN via the ISP will be responsible for EVERYTHING up to that first socket; if they supply you with the VDSL modem, then they are responsible for that as well (at least for an acceptable duration as can be considered a reasonable lifetime according to the ACCC's position on acceptable consumer warranty (other than that which the supplier might claim).
<rant id=tom>This whole experience has just confirmed my all my misgivings for the current rollout and that the current NBN scheme is a huge smelly pile of donkey donuts</rant>
I have found that almost anything is better than ADSL for many -- my old ADSL was using copper lines at around the limit and I was lucky to get ADSL at all, it was much less reliable than my newer HFC setup. However, the full FTTP should be much better again -- FTTN falls below HFC (in my view), but well ahead of ADSL normally. Better than HFC is FTTC which some lucky HFC /type/ customers will get in place of HFC. Fixed wireless sits somewhere between HFC and FTTN in my view; but the worst NBN option being satellite is a much less good option and only just good as a replacement if no other option is viable.
Yes, Internode may be my choice for ISP. They are my current ADSL provider.
Internode is not what they previously were, they are part of the iiBorg set of companies; it may be better than some other options, but it's not what it has, in the past, been known for. My biggest rant is as follows: "Originally the plan was for a government INVESTMENT of $26.9 billion; with monies coming back as a return on investment upon eventual sale of the network. Now we have the real white elephant version at a cost of $60+ billion and there won't be many suiters willing to buy it unless they can pick it up for a song. Hence, we'll lose a very significant amount (if not every cent), that is spent on this far inferior version that is Turncoat's mess." Kind Regards AndrewM
Oh and waiving the CSG -- that normally refers to waiving the rights to an expedient repair of the copper phone line if it becomes in-operable for whatever reason. In the past, Telstra (without any CSG waiver) will be required to repair the phone line more promptly if there are any faults. In any case, no provider wants your phone line to be in-operable for any extended period of time if for any time at all as it is what they need to work to provide you with their broadband product. So, if there is a line fault, it should still get fixed in a reasonably fast time frame, but keep in mind that there are multiple parties involved. Your ISP at the very least, needs to communicate with NBN and NBN in turn may use any contractor, but more likely it will be a Telstra tech. Telstra, in this situation, are less concerned about fixing your line as quickly as they would for their own bonafide customers, but that shouldn't be the case, it /may/ not be an issue at all, but if there are issues, then it certainly is possible that any Telstra tech involved in fixing your line might care less about fixing your line quickly. We hope that, in fact, ALL techs will work in a timely and co-operative manner to get you back to a working service. In the past, (dark early days of ADSL), I've had Telstra techs visit to "fix" a broken phone line, claim that nothing was at fault, but magically the line works fine after their visit. It seemed to me that they were always very reluctant to admit any fault with a line; much like with insurance, you are never meant to admit fault... Cheers A
On 26/06/18 00:48, Andrew McGlashan via luv-main wrote:
On 26/06/18 00:20, Tom Robinson via luv-main wrote:
On 26/06/18 00:03, Rohan McLeod wrote:
/start rant and turn a promising optical fibre-network; into a mediocre piece of crap.....gees thanks Malcom ! end rant /
Not a truer conclusion.
Normally the NBN will not deal directly with customers, all the support is expected to occur through the relevant ISP. Will Internode be your ISP when you connect via the NBN ?
My apologies. We're getting FTTN with VDSL.
The Internode sales guy insisted that I would have to hire my own cabling contractor should there be any issues with cabling between my house and the Node. I tried to explain to him that currently Telstra maintain the wires all the way to the socket on the wall but he kept saying that they wouldn't do that. Well, it's not quite true as some of the wires are now actually NBN wires but when the Telstra Tech's have been here before to fix issues and they test all the bits between the socket on the wall down to the node and then to the exchange.
With FTTN, you will have a copper pair to your home or the MDF (if you have an MDF -- essentially a termination point other than a phone socket).
Still not sure where my Network Boundary Point is. I found this googling last night: https://www.internode.on.net/pdf/legal/cra/internode-nbn-fibre-service-descr... On page two: Network Boundary Point means the point where the Service is provided to, which is; (a) in relation to FTTP, HFC or Fixed Wireless: the Ethernet port on the NBNCo NTD at your Premises; (b) in relation to FTTN or FTTB: the first accessible point in your Premises at which Your Equipment can be terminated and connected to a copper pair for the transmission of an NBN FTTB or FTTN Service. For MDUs, this is your side of the main distribution frame. (c) in relation to FTTC: the first accessible point in your Premises at which an NBNCo NCD can be terminated and connected to a copper pair for the transmission of an NBN FTTC Service. For MDUs, this is your side of the main distribution frame. Not even sure if this document even applies to my situation but it would be reasonable to assume so. My understanding would be that Internode would take care of the line up to "the first accessible point in your Premises at which Your Equipment can be terminated and connected to a copper pair for the transmission of an NBN FTTB or FTTN Service." I still don't know where the MDF/Network Boundary Point is on my house. Truth be told, I can probably find it, but not being a Cable Tech., and never have had to be concerned by it until now, I have no idea! And when I find it, there'd be a certain amount of guess work from my part as it comes down to "that's where I 'think' it is"...
Your copper line will pass the NBN data to the VDSL modem. The NBN via the ISP will be responsible for EVERYTHING up to that first socket; if they supply you with the VDSL modem, then they are responsible for that as well (at least for an acceptable duration as can be considered a reasonable lifetime according to the ACCC's position on acceptable consumer warranty (other than that which the supplier might claim).
<rant id=tom>This whole experience has just confirmed my all my misgivings for the current rollout and that the current NBN scheme is a huge smelly pile of donkey donuts</rant>
I have found that almost anything is better than ADSL for many -- my old ADSL was using copper lines at around the limit and I was lucky to get ADSL at all, it was much less reliable than my newer HFC setup. However, the full FTTP should be much better again -- FTTN falls below HFC (in my view), but well ahead of ADSL normally.
Being in a more rural location I have had good ADSL speeds. Typically I get 18Mbps. And I don't do much uploading.
Better than HFC is FTTC which some lucky HFC /type/ customers will get in place of HFC.
Fixed wireless sits somewhere between HFC and FTTN in my view; but the worst NBN option being satellite is a much less good option and only just good as a replacement if no other option is viable.
Yes, Internode may be my choice for ISP. They are my current ADSL provider.
Internode is not what they previously were, they are part of the iiBorg set of companies; it may be better than some other options, but it's not what it has, in the past, been known for.
Internode support has been reasonable over the years but I have noticed a certain 'Borginess' more recently.
My biggest rant is as follows: "Originally the plan was for a government INVESTMENT of $26.9 billion; with monies coming back as a return on investment upon eventual sale of the network. Now we have the real white elephant version at a cost of $60+ billion and there won't be many suiters willing to buy it unless they can pick it up for a song. Hence, we'll lose a very significant amount (if not every cent), that is spent on this far inferior version that is Turncoat's mess."
Agreed. Hey, how do you really screw up a major national network upgrade? Just politicise it and kick it around until the cost balloons to three times as much as originally planned and provides a weaker technical solution so that by the end of the rollout we have an inferior service and, as a country, we are still behind the rest of the world. -- Tom Robinson 19 Thomas Road Mobile: +61 4 3268 7026 Healesville, VIC 3777 Home: +61 3 5962 4543 Australia GPG Key: 8A4CB7A7 CONFIDENTIALITY: Copyright (C). This message with any appended or attached material is intended for addressees only and may not be copied or forwarded to or used by other parties without permission.
On 26/06/18 00:20, Tom Robinson via luv-main wrote:
The Internode sales guy insisted that I would have to hire my own cabling contractor should there be any issues with cabling between my house and the Node. I tried to explain to him that currently Telstra maintain the wires all the way to the socket on the wall but he kept saying that they wouldn't do that. Well, it's not quite true as some of the wires are now actually NBN wires but when the Telstra Tech's have been here before to fix issues and they test all the bits between the socket on the wall down to the node and then to the exchange.
I may have confused 'kindness' for 'service' above. I think the Telstra Tech. I've been dealing with has just 'lent a hand' and fixed my socket on the wall. I'm beginning to think that the Network Boundary Point has always been a termination either somewhere on the outside of the house or on the yard/street boundary somewhere. -- Tom Robinson 19 Thomas Road Mobile: +61 4 3268 7026 Healesville, VIC 3777 Home: +61 3 5962 4543 Australia GPG Key: 8A4CB7A7 CONFIDENTIALITY: Copyright (C). This message with any appended or attached material is intended for addressees only and may not be copied or forwarded to or used by other parties without permission.
Tom Robinson via luv-main <luv-main@luv.asn.au> wrote:
I may have confused 'kindness' for 'service' above. I think the Telstra Tech. I've been dealing with has just 'lent a hand' and fixed my socket on the wall. I'm beginning to think that the Network Boundary Point has always been a termination either somewhere on the outside of the house or on the yard/street boundary somewhere.
I don't know whether this has changed, but when I last read about it, the network termination point was defined as the first socket (i.e., to which customer equipment can be connected). When a Telstra Network Termination Device was installed at my family's home in Melbourne, with ADSL filtering included, it was a box outside the house. However, there was a "test socket" inside the box, so, technically, the network boundary point still was the first socket.
We're on NBN via HFC through Internode (aka TPG). Despite the house already having two cable connections (ex Telstra & Optus), Telstra, providing contracting services for NBN, installed a new connection into our study (as specified by me). This included a new cable from the pole (they removed the old Telstra cable), the termination box on the exterior wall, a new internal socket adjacent to the skirting board and the Aris 8200 cable modem. Therefore I suppose that the first socket I can connect to is the RJ45 on the cable modem. To which Internode (no doubt forced by TPG) supplied that god awful Huawei HG659 wireless modem/router. It's required because it's internally configured to carry the NBN phone (voip) service and despite some hackery of said device, I was unable to get my ASUS router/modem to maintain a stable voip connection. In the end I created a DMZ on the HG659 and put my ASUS router into it such the HG659 is only doing the initial service connection and carrying the voice service. BTW when we first signed up I too had to waive the CSG. They explained that the CSG was based on old physically connected POTS services. This would appear to be corroborated by ACMA. See https://www.acma.gov.au /Citizen/Phones/Landlines/Phone-connection-and-repair/customer-service-guarantee-for-phone-users- faqs The same page indicates that NBN may not be covered as it's an "Internet service". On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 at 01:16, Jason White via luv-main <luv-main@luv.asn.au> wrote:
Tom Robinson via luv-main <luv-main@luv.asn.au> wrote:
I may have confused 'kindness' for 'service' above. I think the Telstra Tech. I've been dealing with has just 'lent a hand' and fixed my socket on the wall. I'm beginning to think that the Network Boundary Point has always been a termination either somewhere on the outside of the house or on the yard/street boundary somewhere.
I don't know whether this has changed, but when I last read about it, the network termination point was defined as the first socket (i.e., to which customer equipment can be connected).
When a Telstra Network Termination Device was installed at my family's home in Melbourne, with ADSL filtering included, it was a box outside the house. However, there was a "test socket" inside the box, so, technically, the network boundary point still was the first socket.
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-- Colin Fee tfeccles@gmail.com
On 9/07/2018 9:13 AM, Colin Fee via luv-main wrote:
BTW when we first signed up I too had to waive the CSG. They explained that the CSG was based on old physically connected POTS services. This would appear to be corroborated by ACMA. See https://www.acma.gov.au/Citizen/Phones/Landlines/Phone-connection-and-repair...
FWIW, I had a long-running drama with Telstra regarding NBN over HFC access early last year. The outcome was their paying me in excess of $1,000 in CSG reimbursement. So the CSG does appear to apply to any voice (phone) service /including VoIP/. BTW I strongly recommend Aussie Broadband as a RSP. ABB are willing to listen, Australian, and knowledgable. They were very patient whilst I spent time debugging slower-than-expected speeds that at first looked like bandwidth shaping at their end but turned out to be an old custom firewall setting hiding in my second-hand Snapgear router. George
On 26/06/18 11:55, Tom Robinson via luv-main wrote:
On 26/06/18 00:20, Tom Robinson via luv-main wrote:
The Internode sales guy insisted that I would have to hire my own cabling contractor should there be any issues with cabling between my house and the Node. I tried to explain to him that currently Telstra maintain the wires all the way to the socket on the wall but he kept saying that they wouldn't do that. Well, it's not quite true as some of the wires are now actually NBN wires but when the Telstra Tech's have been here before to fix issues and they test all the bits between the socket on the wall down to the node and then to the exchange.
I may have confused 'kindness' for 'service' above. I think the Telstra Tech. I've been dealing with has just 'lent a hand' and fixed my socket on the wall. I'm beginning to think that the Network Boundary Point has always been a termination either somewhere on the outside of the house or on the yard/street boundary somewhere.
A quick update. I've gone with ABB. They are great to deal with. I've also located the Network Boundary Point on my barge boards. I'm yet to re-cable my internal wiring to minimise the copper and maximise the speed. Will get connected next Tuesday but my official termination date is this Friday. It remains to be seen if I have to hotspot over 3G until then. With luck the termination will be delayed until the NBN is connected. -- Tom Robinson 19 Thomas Road Mobile: +61 4 3268 7026 Healesville, VIC 3777 Home: +61 3 5962 4543 Australia GPG Key: 8A4CB7A7 CONFIDENTIALITY: Copyright (C). This message with any appended or attached material is intended for addressees only and may not be copied or forwarded to or used by other parties without permission.
Perhaps I can add my recent experience. I have had problems with NBN since I signed up in January and have finally had resolution last week. In choosing my ISP I decided that one criteria must be that they provide local telephone support and that my bandwidth should remain as stable as possible through the peak usage times. From a number of providers I chose Ausiebroadband which satisfied both these requirements and have been great. My problems began immediately after the change from ADSL - line dropouts, and although speeds were better that ADSL they were nowhere near what I expected on a 50/20 plan. I put up with it for a while but after many internet and phone call dropouts (voip) I decided to keep a record of speeds and service interruptions. The main issue was upload speeds - down to 0.5 mbps with downloads down to 19mbps at times. I kept records of all service interruptions, speed tests and screenshots of my modem line speeds etc. With phonecalls and emails backwards and forwards to Aussiebroadband (they tracked my service also) and when they had sufficient info and had done everything they could with monitoring, port resets and applying stability profiles it was referred on to NBN. Over some months it took visits from three different NBN technicians (Telsra?) before I finally got one who actually knew what he was doing and found the problem - poor joint soldering and a faulty pair in the post down the road. The other techs had also checked everything from the node to my house right up to my internal telephone socket, so they took responsibility to that point. The final successful tech was in telephone contact the whole time he was testing with a woman in India - they can check the performance of every phone line in the country from there. I am 920m from the nearest node but am now getting 48mbps download and 15mbps upload - absolutely stable, and when ADSL is turned off on the line it should get even better. I would have to say that having telephone contact with someone in Melbourne who I could understand, and who actually cared about my problem, was a huge bonus. They would call me back regularly along with email contact - I can't speak highly enough of their service. It took time to resolve but that is attributable to the processes required by the NBN and the number of tech appointments/visits to finally find the problem. My conclusion - choose your provider carefully and be persistent if a problem arises with the NBN. Bob On 25/06/18 21:33, Tom Robinson via luv-main wrote:
I'm hoping someone here may have some insight to cabling responsibilities under the NBN and also my expected rights under the Customer Service Guarantee (CSG).
I was talking to Internode today about transitioning to the NBN and had a few surprises:
1. I will now be responsible for the cabling from my wall socket to some as yet undefined location in the street (sales guy couldn't tell me where that was). 2. I have to waive my rights to the CSG.
I have had two occasions in the last year when I've had to call Telstra to come and fix my line issues (which they did at no cost to me). What can I expect under the NBN?
participants (7)
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Andrew McGlashan -
bob -
Colin Fee -
George Georgakis -
Jason White -
Rohan McLeod -
Tom Robinson