Re: [luv-talk] Should I feel sorry for Queenslanders?! - luv-talk

25 Nov 2013

Quoting "Russell Coker" &lt;russell(a)coker.com.au&gt;

...
  On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, Petros
&lt;Petros.Listig(a)fdrive.com.au&gt; wrote:
  Quoting "Jason White"
&lt;jason(a)jasonjgw.net&gt;
  I understand and appreciate the benefits of such
a model; the question is
 whether people who are misclassified have the opportunity to overcome
 their educational disadvantage and move up into the more intellectually
 rigorous stream destined for higher education. There will always be
 people who are pushed into the wrong stream, and the real problem is for
 those who are "downgraded" inappropriately. 
 IMHO the German system creates losers. It is not very fluid. Kids are
 "stuck" from early age.

 The selection happens in year 4, and it's based on teacher
 recommendations. Quite often, so it seems, it is more judging the
 social background of a child than the child's abilities. 
 But in a system like the Australian one where kids aren't streamed would such
 kids do much better?  There has been some research to show that a teacher's
 belief in the ability of the kids has a significant effect on the educational
 results.  So if a teacher believes that some grade 4 kids aren't going to
 learn much then they won't teach them much and they might as well be in a
 school for less intelligent kids. 
I have seen more care for "outsiders" in schools here than I remember  
or hear of from Germany.

I have friends with a slightly autistic child, he had a lot of support  
and understanding at school. They are moving back to Germany. We are  
frankly worried - I do not think German schools are that inclusive.

Nothing is perfect but there is a lot good things to say about how  
people deal with each other, at least here in Melbourne.

...
   (Don't get
me wrong, I am not against considering environmental issues
 or other society-relevant ones. But that has to do with world views,
 and a school is, in my opinion, not the place to teach kids "how to
 think". Sometimes it helps to know some facts to form a view, not only
 to have an opinion. E.g. everybody who is reading a bit of the
 business part of a newspaper, and compares it with the general
 political pages, will understand what I mean.) 
 "How to think" would mean logical analysis of arguments etc and the
"debates"
 about the environment provides many good examples where young  
 children can see the flaws in arguments. 
Hmmh, I feel a bit misunderstood.

I do not have the feeling that schools are particularly good these  
days in teaching fundamentals.

E.g. a friend from East Germany (we both studied IT together) moved to  
the country side and is doing studies in agriculture. She still  
remembers all that stuff about pH value, acids, salts.. and is amazed  
how much less a few of her fellow students know here even if they are  
much younger so shouldn't have forgotten that much yet.

"We are harming the land, it all gets saltier" Okay, what does it mean  
if you do not remember anything about the basics? It's the talk of a  
parrot.

...
  If "normal" in this case means anything like
most schools then it's not
 helpful in developing social skills unless you are preparing kids for prison
 life.

 My observation is that for boys socialisation in high school is largely based
 around how to use force to get what you want.  Someone who graduates  
 from such a school has probably learned a lot that would help them  
 in a career dealing
 drugs, but for a career in IT (the original topic of this thread) it's not
 particularly useful. 
That's a bleak picture.. It does not fit my observations..

...
  People need to understand that there are things that
they are good at and
 things that they aren't.  If you're not good at something and working in a
 team then you should try and find someone else who's better in that area to
 help train you or help you do the work. 
Agreed.

I prefer to be praised for having good maths skills than to be put  
down for not being good in drawing..

I guess I figure out myself that my neighbour's pictures are much prettier.

...
  Not that paying teachers better will necessarily
improve things.  There is a
 limited number of people in Australia with the skills to teach well.  
  Of those people I think that the majority are already teaching. 
I am not that certain. Being a teacher is nothing to be proud of.  
Teachers are lazy, have too much holidays, can't do anything with  
kids, at least not with my child - that's the public picture of a  
teacher I hear.

I am the punch bag for everyone, and the money isn't good either.  
What's the incentive of being a teacher?

...
  I think that the best thing to do is to reduce the
amount of schooling.
 Encourage kids to leave school at 16 if it's not working for them and both
 reduce the number of classes (getting rid of some of the less capable
 teachers) and reducing the class size (some teachers who can't handle 25 kids
 can do well with 12). 
There are kids leaving school at 16. Two of them quite capable  
apprentices in the factory here.

Regards
Peter