Re: [luv-talk] Refugees (was Re: Vale Nelson Mandela)
From: "Lev Lafayette"
As you perhaps also suggested, there is also a question of definition. I have heard it said (not by you) for example that there is really no such thing as Palestine as a country. Therefore "Palestinians" in Jordan or Syria or Lebanon or Egypt are really in most cases in their own country and therefore do not fit with some legal definitions of refugees.
Perhaps you would care to provide an example of such a legal definition?
So I don't put much store on the UN's legal definition.
Could you provide, for reference, which definition you are using then?
See under Definition from"United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees". Note the requirement to be outside your country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee As I said, I don't consider legal definitions to be morally probative.
There is also the issue of latent refugee supply.
Or it is any number you choose?
As an IT guy, if you have done any capacity planning you should be well aware of the concept of latent demand. And that it is hard to estimate. That is why I used various methods to show that iarge eg green card lottery applicants. According to Wikipedia there are over 2,000,000 Tamils in Sri Lanka and over 9,000,000 Palestinians about half of whom are classified as refugees.
Immigration to Australia is already in the range of 300,000 per year and many more are knocked back.
[[Citation needed]]
See below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ABS-3401.0-OverseasArrivalsDeparturesAust...
According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, Nov 2012 to Nov 2013 there was 163910 permanent settlers arrivals.
It seems that on both the matter of refugees and immigrants when reality is compared to the numbers you claim, you roughly double the real figures.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/3412.0Chapter32011-12%20and%2... "In 2012-13, NOM increased from the previous year reaching an annual estimate of 244,400 persons" The gross arrivals were 508,662 and departures were 264,291. People arrive with various temporary visas and become permanents thus your figure is misleading. In any case, you are avoiding the point which is that in reality large numbers of people want to come and live in Australia, far more than we can realistically accept. And the ludicrousness of the proposition that no-one would leave their country of origin except in cases of dire need, And again note the intense focus on proving what an evil person I am, as a means for distracting everyone from the basic issue that moral posturing is no substitute for an actual policy proposal. Tim
On Wed, February 12, 2014 10:01 am, Tim Josling wrote:
From: "Lev Lafayette"
Could you provide, for reference, which definition you are using then?
See under Definition from"United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees". Note the requirement to be outside your country.
So you are using the UNHCR definition. Which was the figure I cited, rather than the suggestion that it was double that amount.
There is also the issue of latent refugee supply.
Or it is any number you choose?
As an IT guy, if you have done any capacity planning you should be well aware of the concept of latent demand. And that it is hard to estimate.
I am well aware of it, and in this context a "latent refugee" is anybody on the planet.
"In 2012-13, NOM increased from the previous year reaching an annual estimate of 244,400 persons"
The gross arrivals were 508,662 and departures were 264,291.
So your figure of 300,000 immigrants was somewhat inflated.
People arrive with various temporary visas and become permanents thus your figure is misleading.
From your very own ABS citation, of the gross arrivals included 217 055 people on temporary visas. This includes 50 576 on working holidays (Anglo-Irish backpackers would certainly make up a few), over 50 000 students, almost 60 000 Kiwis, over 40 000 on temporary work visas, and over 40 000 tourists.
How many of those do you suppose become permanent migrants?
In any case, you are avoiding the point which is that in reality large numbers of people want to come and live in Australia, far more than we can realistically accept. And the ludicrousness of the proposition that no-one would leave their country of origin except in cases of dire need,
Actually if you care to check the Senator's comments I think you will discover that they were referring to people who come over via boat as an unauthorised arrival. It does take a certain desperation to even contemplate such as journey.
And again note the intense focus on proving what an evil person I am, as a means for distracting everyone from the basic issue that moral posturing is no substitute for an actual policy proposal.
There's plenty of policy proposals out there if one does a little bit of honest research. -- Lev Lafayette, BA (Hons), GradCertTerAdEd (Murdoch), GradCertPM, MBA (Tech Mngmnt) (Chifley) mobile: 0432 255 208 RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt
participants (2)
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Lev Lafayette -
Tim Josling