How does this happen?
http://bipartisanreport.com/2016/11/02/starbucks-sticks-it-to-donald-trump-w... This makes as much sense as the crazy anti-systemd stuff. Why and how does it happen? -- Sent from my Nexus 6P with K-9 Mail.
Quoting Russell Coker (russell@coker.com.au):
http://bipartisanreport.com/2016/11/02/starbucks-sticks-it-to-donald-trump-w...
This makes as much sense as the crazy anti-systemd stuff. Why and how does it happen?
Um.... It happens because social media hands random, attention-seeking crazy people both a big megaphone and pseudonymity with total freedom from consequence. The batshit crazy are free to speak for some entire movement, because nobody can claim they don't (or at least, it doesn't help much if/when they do). And then other people like you can then claim whatever-movement-in-question is inherently crazy because random crazy pseudonymous people have claimed to speak for it. What part of social media, crazy people, a 7.4 billion population count, and drive-by Internet rage-mobbing have you been unclear about, Russell? Because this has been the way it works for at least a decade. I can only guess you've been hiding in a hermit cave or lost at sea.
Rick Moen via luv-talk <luv-talk@luv.asn.au> writes:
I can only guess you've been hiding in a hermit cave or lost at sea.
Can I join Russell? Seems a much better option then reading yet another (recent) comment blaming green power for the SA blackup. -- Brian May <brian@linuxpenguins.xyz> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
On Thursday, 3 November 2016 12:11:20 PM AEDT Rick Moen via luv-talk wrote:
Quoting Russell Coker (russell@coker.com.au):
http://bipartisanreport.com/2016/11/02/starbucks-sticks-it-to-donald-trump -with-awesome-new-to-go-cup-trump-livid-image/
This makes as much sense as the crazy anti-systemd stuff. Why and how does it happen?
Um....
It happens because social media hands random, attention-seeking crazy people both a big megaphone and pseudonymity with total freedom from consequence. The batshit crazy are free to speak for some entire movement, because nobody can claim they don't (or at least, it doesn't help much if/when they do). And then other people like you can then claim whatever-movement-in-question is inherently crazy because random crazy pseudonymous people have claimed to speak for it.
I'm sure that there are crazy people who support Hillary Clinton. But there is a clear difference between crazy people and her official representatives. With all the crazy stuff that Donald Trump does and his official representatives defend there is no clear difference. In fact there have been people who have been sacked for doing exactly what Donald asked them too, Donald isn't merely following the crazy, he's leading it. People who might have been law-abiding citizens with more responsible leadership are ending up as criminals after following Trump's advice.
What part of social media, crazy people, a 7.4 billion population count, and drive-by Internet rage-mobbing have you been unclear about, Russell? Because this has been the way it works for at least a decade. I can only guess you've been hiding in a hermit cave or lost at sea.
Name one first-world country other than the US and Italy who has had a candidate as awful as Trump in recent times. Trump makes Ronald Raygun's joke about a nuclear launch seem like it wasn't a big deal. He makes Thatcher and Raygun's support of Pinochet and assorted other nasties seem like a reasonable way of running government. His stated plans for running government would make him more of a crook than Nixon and more generally corrupt than Raygun if he ever managed to implement them. http://www.salon.com/2016/09/15/gamergater/ http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-election/gamergate-meme-war-shares-dna-with-p... GamerGate has been around for a while. But Trump is the first GamerGate candidate for high office. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
Russell Coker via luv-talk wrote:
Name one first-world country other than the US and Italy who has had a candidate as awful as Trump in recent times.
UK, BoJo. e.g. He joked that Malaysian women attended university in order to find husbands. He criticised London's Saint Patrick's Day gala dinner celebrations, linking them to Sinn Féin and branding the event "Lefty crap", Tony Abbott welcomed the appointment [as Foreign Secretary] and called him "a friend of Australia". https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/19/boris-johnson-wins-most-off... Granted he didn't actually run for PM, but it was a near thing. Wandering through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_world... .cz, Zeman: Zeman had called the ethnic Germans in pre-war Czechoslovakia "Hitler's Fifth column".[40] Zeman stated that "the Czechs and Slovaks were doing the Sudeten Germans a favor by expelling them. thousands of Czechs took part in a demonstration against Zeman, protesting his pro-Russian stance and vulgar language.[26][48] I thought I had something for Duda being super crazy and wanting to deport all vegetarians and tobacco smokers, but I can't find it. Ah, here we go: http://wroclawuncut.com/2016/01/04/foreign-minister-in-cyclists-vegetarians-... http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-35220316 .fr, Le Pen: Marine Le Pen seeks to establish a moratorium on legal immigration.[279][280] she praised David Cameron's pledge to cut net annual immigration to UK from around 200,000 to "tens of thousands".[285] .nl, Wilders: He sparked widespread controversy when he asked "Do you want, [...] more or less Moroccans?", after which they chanted "Less! Less!". Wilders' response was "Then we'll fix it!". He believes that all Muslim immigration to the Netherlands should be halted and all settled immigrants should be paid to leave.[4] "If Jerusalem falls into the hands of the Muslims, Athens and Rome will be next." ...OK, bored now. You might argue that Trump is more "awful" than some of the above because he's such an insane clown, but I submit it's more awful to consider a competent fascist than an incompetent fascist :-P Oh, PS: "developed world" arguably includes unfun places that don't get elections in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain#Human_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunei#Human_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Human_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar#Sharia_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_legislative_election,_2016#Electoral... "unpatriotic" candidates would have to be screened out by a Beijing-controlled nominating committee.[4]
Quoting russell@coker.com.au (russell@coker.com.au):
I'm sure that there are crazy people who support Hillary Clinton. But there is a clear difference between crazy people and her official representatives. With all the crazy stuff that Donald Trump does and his official representatives defend there is no clear difference.
Oh, without doubt, the Breitbart / Infowars people internal to Der Trumpenführer's campaign are the scum of the earth and have a record of defending the indefensible. And so is he. But you weren't talking about his official representatives. You were talking about random, pseudonymous self-designated Trump partisans posting blithering crazy talk to Twitter. So, in now speaking of the alleged candidate's official representatives, you've utterly changed the subject. I have no problem with your changing the subject; I merely note that you have done so.
Donald isn't merely following the crazy, he's leading it.
Indeed. But, again, this simply isn't what you asked about.
Name one first-world country other than the US and Italy who has had a candidate as awful as Trump in recent times.
Again, you have radically changed the subject. You were asking about random pseudonymous self-designated Trump partisans on Twitter. And now, suddenly you are not. Are you _aware_ that you radically changed the subject after asking an entirely different question?
Russell, On 03/11/16 23:27, Russell Coker via luv-talk wrote:
http://bipartisanreport.com/2016/11/02/starbucks-sticks-it-to-donald-trump-w...
This makes as much sense as the crazy anti-systemd stuff. Why and how does it happen?
The fact that YOU support systemd is enough for many to think it is a problem; pity it's much more of a problem than that in reality. Happily using Devuan now myself, thank you very much. A.
On Sunday, 6 November 2016 12:42:59 AM AEDT Andrew McGlashan via luv-talk wrote:
Russell,
On 03/11/16 23:27, Russell Coker via luv-talk wrote:
http://bipartisanreport.com/2016/11/02/starbucks-sticks-it-to-donald-trump -with-awesome-new-to-go-cup-trump-livid-image/
This makes as much sense as the crazy anti-systemd stuff. Why and how does it happen? The fact that YOU support systemd is enough for many to think it is a problem; pity it's much more of a problem than that in reality.
Because I don't believe in your conspiracy theories you want to avoid software that I think is OK?
Happily using Devuan now myself, thank you very much.
Whenever you find that Devuan doesn't do what you want feel free to follow Rick's advice on avoiding systemd while using Debian. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
On 06/11/16 14:17, Russell Coker via luv-talk wrote:
On Sunday, 6 November 2016 12:42:59 AM AEDT Andrew McGlashan via luv-talk wrote:
Russell,
On 03/11/16 23:27, Russell Coker via luv-talk wrote:
http://bipartisanreport.com/2016/11/02/starbucks-sticks-it-to-donald-trump -with-awesome-new-to-go-cup-trump-livid-image/
This makes as much sense as the crazy anti-systemd stuff. Why and how does it happen? The fact that YOU support systemd is enough for many to think it is a problem; pity it's much more of a problem than that in reality.
Because I don't believe in your conspiracy theories you want to avoid software that I think is OK?
The fact that systemd is just such a wrong step has nothing to do with any conspiracy theory. It is completely self-evident. I didn't decide on systemd based on your views.
Happily using Devuan now myself, thank you very much.
Whenever you find that Devuan doesn't do what you want feel free to follow Rick's advice on avoiding systemd while using Debian.
Whatever. You know that Devuan is a Debian based fork. A.
Quoting russell@coker.com.au (russell@coker.com.au):
Whenever you find that Devuan doesn't do what you want feel free to follow Rick's advice on avoiding systemd while using Debian.
There are several obvious practical use-cases for Devuan, even though I don't personally see the merit of all of them. 1. User has ongoing interest in any of the several DEs that on Debian have been becoming increasingly dependent on package chains resolving to include systemd. As I documented on my Web page 'Debian 8 "Jessie" OpenRC Conversion', GNOME and close relatives (MATE, Cinnamon), but also to a significant degree KDE, and Razor-qt have been _as a whole_ developing Debian package dependencies that require systemd. 2. User is concerned about the prospect for further problematic dependency chains in Debian 9 and later, over time. 3. User wants full-citizenship distro support for an init system other than systemd. (I personally think this is a little silly, as I think the work required to fix any holes is trivial, but views differ.) 4. User is interested in some of the improvements Devuan is working to introduce into to the Debian-compatible world, such as vdev and others. I don't always get along fully with the Devuan folks (with some justification, they consider me ideologically unreliable ;-> ), but I personally am grateful for their work. There have lately been several Devuan-related ISO images, i.e., alternative Debian installer ISOs. Such are _always_ interesting and worthwhile to keep track of, IMO. In the past, my favourite way of installing Debian testing/unstable was a live-CD distro called Aptosid, excellent in many ways including use of a really good cutting-edge installation kernel. I expect to soon go hunting for a modern equivalent, and it's good to have options from the Devuan side of things, among others.
(Sorry this post is so long; I didn't have time to make it shorter.) Rick Moen via luv-talk wrote:
3. User wants full-citizenship distro support for an init system other than systemd. (I personally think this is a little silly, as I think the work required to fix any holes is trivial, but views differ.)
Speaking as someone who had to jump through many hoops to support Upstart when it was first rolled out in Ubuntu 8.04 and Ubuntu 10.04, and systemd on Debian 8, and who also watched on the sidelines when pere rolled out insserv/starpar parallel booting by default in Debian 7, I strongly believe it's *not* trivial. Maybe it's only enough work for one full-time person, but it's more than I could easily cope with alongside my other regular responsibilities. (Oh, I also tested cinit/minit back in the day, but I gave up on those before production rollout, because NO WAY was I going to write job descriptions for every system component.) PS: Debian 9 systemd support isn't the complete shitshow that Debian 8 was. In particular, you don't have to write your own rpcbind and nfs-utils units anymore, because Neil Brown (upstream) fixed that in 1.3.x. Also a lot of the horror was due to having as many as FOUR different ways to do a job (e.g. initializing the mixer levels in alsa-utils), much of which was to handle transition from pre-systemd world. That's transition-specific and ought to get better in Debian 9+. PPS: systemd really wants to be in charge of the initrd, too. Problems with e.g. LUKS are blamed on Debian's (extremely old and horrible) initrd. There is a lot of room for improvement there. Fedora initrd is systemd; archlinux's is opt-in systemd. #systemd on irc.freenode.net still gets a lot of arch users with problems decrypting LUKS iff using systemd in the initrd. >shrug<
4. User is interested in some of the improvements Devuan is working to introduce into to the Debian-compatible world, such as vdev and others.
Personally, I think Debian's Policy Manual is its killer feature. If I was prepared to give up on that, and was building my own distro, it'd be built on top of musl and busybox (inc. busybox mdev). NB: mdev doesn't do the whole blkid thing, but linux-utils mount uses libblkid internally, so *ALLEGEDLY* you can do "mount LABEL=porn" even though no symlink /dev/disk/by-name/porn exists. I haven't verified this myself. I've been through the source for udev and eudev, and the reason there's no ABNF for the udev syntax is that not even the source code reliably parses it. There's no discrete parse stage at all. It's utterly flipping cry-into-your-beer horrible. I'm not familiar with vdev, it appears to be this: https://git.devuan.org/unsystemd/vdev https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev the latter explicitly says This system is mothballed. It's usable if you know what you're doing [...] Expect to get your hands dirty. I do not have time to work on it in the foreseeable future, nor do I have time to answer support requests. They're the same codebase, the devuan one is just missing the last 11 months / 25 commits. PS: OpenWRT also have their own in-house replacements for systemd, logind, and udev. They're not really set up (yet?) for use by anyone else, but they're certainly interesting for study. http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/techref/procd (& other pages)
Quoting Trent W. Buck (trentbuck@gmail.com):
(Sorry this post is so long; I didn't have time to make it shorter.)
You and your friend Blaise. ;->
Speaking as someone who had to jump through many hoops to support Upstart when it was first rolled out in Ubuntu 8.04 and Ubuntu 10.04, and systemd on Debian 8, and who also watched on the sidelines when pere rolled out insserv/starpar parallel booting by default in Debian 7, I strongly believe it's *not* trivial.
Maybe it's only enough work for one full-time person, but it's more than I could easily cope with alongside my other regular responsibilities.
To be clear about what I meant, I am not being critical of DDs' refusal to commit to making sure that a whole flock of init systems have full-citizen support. What I was saying is that, if (say) I wanted to use OpenRC on Debian 8 and there weren't packages with the necessary plumbing for the 7 or 8 services I desire to run (init scripts or whatever), I'd just create that plumbing locally for the 7-8 services. It wouldn't be a big deal for a local admin to do that for local needs, IMO.
(Oh, I also tested cinit/minit back in the day, but I gave up on those before production rollout, because NO WAY was I going to write job descriptions for every system component.)
Well, honestly, how many system components require init plumbing on a typical system? In my experience, not many.
PPS: systemd really wants to be in charge of the initrd, too.
I have no problem with it wanting. ;-> (With luck, my next server build won't need an initrd. I'm going to see if I can just compile in what the machine needs.)
Personally, I think Debian's Policy Manual is its killer feature.
I absolutely concur -- and certainly hope Devuan doesn't bollix that. (Aptosid carefully complied with Debian Policy, in its day, FWIW. I hope I'll find that its rival live-CD sibling Siduction does likewise, but haven't caught up with it, yet.)
If I was prepared to give up on that, and was building my own distro, it'd be built on top of musl and busybox (inc. busybox mdev).
Yes, I'm looking into that -- though I'd aspire to follow Debian Policy to every extent possible, in so doing.
NB: mdev doesn't do the whole blkid thing, but linux-utils mount uses libblkid internally, so *ALLEGEDLY* you can do "mount LABEL=porn" even though no symlink /dev/disk/by-name/porn exists. I haven't verified this myself.
For server deployment, I would expect to have no reliance blkid(8) nor UUIDs. I'm glad they meet the needs of people with relevant use-cases.
I'm not familiar with vdev, it appears to be this:
https://git.devuan.org/unsystemd/vdev https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev
the latter explicitly says
This system is mothballed. It's usable if you know what you're doing [...] Expect to get your hands dirty.
Outdated links. There's a guy who took over maintenance. Honestly, though for my own uses on servers, it looks _way_ overengineered. What I'll be using on my upcoming server rebuild will depend on testing, but the first thing I'll be trying is just plain static /dev . If there turn out to be problems with that, I'd have a go with mdev -- and I strongly doubt that there'll be any need whatsoever for anything more complicated than that. For my _own_ use-cases, on servers and on my preferred sparsely built, no-DE laptops, I cannot presently anticipate needing anything as complex as vdev (or for that matter udev), either. But again, that will be determined by testing.
PS: OpenWRT also have their own in-house replacements for systemd, logind, and udev. They're not really set up (yet?) for use by anyone else, but they're certainly interesting for study.
http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/techref/procd (& other pages)
Interesting. For my own Linux uses, what I seek, though, is (being admittedly a little vague, here) to avoid dealing with the characteristic objectives of systemd, logind, and udev at all -- if possible: Specifically, to the best of my present understanding, there's literally nothing I do where I need or want hotplugging. Back a number of years ago on Don Marti's linux-elitists mailing list, I remember politely questioning whether then-new udev was actually necessary, especially on servers, and Greg K-H rather hotly responded with a well-practiced tale of how it was needed so that his daughter could connect and disconnect USB printers without needing to wield root authority. I was impressed by the passion in his defence of his daughter's interests, so much so that I was very gentle when I told Greg that his daughter would not be permitted to connect her USB printer to my server. I've been more than a little skeptical of the entire farrago, ever since.
Rick Moen via luv-talk wrote:
Quoting Trent W. Buck (trentbuck@gmail.com):
(Sorry this post is so long; I didn't have time to make it shorter.)
You and your friend Blaise. ;->
Speaking as someone who had to jump through many hoops to support Upstart when it was first rolled out in Ubuntu 8.04 and Ubuntu 10.04, and systemd on Debian 8, and who also watched on the sidelines when pere rolled out insserv/starpar parallel booting by default in Debian 7, I strongly believe it's *not* trivial.
Maybe it's only enough work for one full-time person, but it's more than I could easily cope with alongside my other regular responsibilities.
To be clear about what I meant, I am not being critical of DDs' refusal to commit to making sure that a whole flock of init systems have full-citizen support. What I was saying is that, if (say) I wanted to use OpenRC on Debian 8 and there weren't packages with the necessary plumbing for the 7 or 8 services I desire to run (init scripts or whatever), I'd just create that plumbing locally for the 7-8 services. It wouldn't be a big deal for a local admin to do that for local needs, IMO.
(Oh, I also tested cinit/minit back in the day, but I gave up on those before production rollout, because NO WAY was I going to write job descriptions for every system component.)
Well, honestly, how many system components require init plumbing on a typical system? In my experience, not many.
For hard numbers, I'll look at two Debian 8 systemd systems I have in front of me: a shell server and a locked-down diskless GUI kiosk. Basic Debian 8 install, w/o GUI, w/ NFS client, w/ ISC NTP client: root@zygon:~# systemctl list-units | wc -l 89 root@zygon:~# systemctl list-unit-files | wc -l 208 Debian 8 XFCE kiosk, custom units: # In-house services disc-snitchd.service e-s-c.service firewall.service tablet-snitchd.service udev.service usb-snitchd.service zramon.service # Bug fixes (rewritten / patched) display-manager.service multi-user.target nslcd.service prayer.service prayer.socket remote-fs.target rpcbind.service srv-share.mount srv-tv.mount statd.service unscd.service xdm.service # Masking/deleting unwanted units # (These are mostly things that were separate opt-in packages in Debian 7, # but are now opt-out parts of the Debian 8 systemd core package.) removed 'lib/systemd/system/cryptdisks-early.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/cryptdisks.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/cryptsetup-pre.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/cryptsetup.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/systemd-ask-password-wall.path' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/cryptsetup.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/systemd-ask-password-console.path' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-ask-password-console.path' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-ask-password-console.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-ask-password-plymouth.path' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-ask-password-plymouth.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-ask-password-wall.path' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-ask-password-wall.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/container-getty@.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/dbus-org.freedesktop.machine1.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/machine.slice' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-machined.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-nspawn@.service' removed 'etc/systemd/system/getty.target.wants/getty@tty1.service' removed directory: 'etc/systemd/system/getty.target.wants' removed 'lib/systemd/system/autovt@.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/console-getty.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/console-shell.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/debug-shell.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/emergency.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/emergency.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/getty-static.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/getty.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/getty.target.wants/getty-static.service' removed directory: 'lib/systemd/system/getty.target.wants' removed 'lib/systemd/system/getty@.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/getty.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/rescue.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/rescue.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/rescue.target.wants/systemd-update-utmp-runlevel.service' removed directory: 'lib/systemd/system/rescue.target.wants' removed 'lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sys-kernel-debug.mount' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/sys-kernel-debug.mount' removed 'lib/systemd/system/user.slice' removed 'lib/systemd/system/user@.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/hibernate.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/hybrid-sleep.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sleep.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/suspend.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-hibernate.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-hybrid-sleep.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-suspend.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/bluetooth.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/smartcard.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-rfkill@.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/system-update.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/ifup@.service' removed 'etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/quotarpc.service' removed 'etc/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/quota.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/alsa-restore.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/alsa-state.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/alsa-store.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/alsa-utils.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/basic.target.wants/alsa-restore.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/basic.target.wants/alsa-state.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/dev-mqueue.mount' removed 'lib/systemd/system/network-online.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/network-pre.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/network.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/networking.service.d/network-pre.conf' removed directory: 'lib/systemd/system/networking.service.d' removed 'lib/systemd/system/proc-sys-fs-binfmt_misc.automount' removed 'lib/systemd/system/proc-sys-fs-binfmt_misc.mount' removed 'lib/systemd/system/quota.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/quotaon.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/quotarpc.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/shutdown.target.wants/alsa-store.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sys-kernel-config.mount' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/dev-mqueue.mount' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/proc-sys-fs-binfmt_misc.automount' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/sys-kernel-config.mount' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/systemd-binfmt.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/systemd-journal-flush.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/systemd-random-seed.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-backlight@.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-binfmt.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-fsck-root.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-fsck@.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-journal-flush.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-networkd-wait-online.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-networkd.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-quotacheck.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-random-seed.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-readahead-collect.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-readahead-done.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-readahead-done.timer' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-readahead-drop.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-readahead-replay.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-resolved.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/urandom.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/dbus-org.freedesktop.hostname1.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/systemd-hostnamed.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/initrd-cleanup.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/initrd-fs.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/initrd-parse-etc.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/initrd-root-fs.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/initrd-switch-root.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/initrd-switch-root.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/initrd-switch-root.target.wants/plymouth-start.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/initrd-switch-root.target.wants/plymouth-switch-root.service' removed directory: 'lib/systemd/system/initrd-switch-root.target.wants' removed 'lib/systemd/system/initrd-udevadm-cleanup-db.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/initrd.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/plymouth-switch-root.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/plymouth-start.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/plymouth-start.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/debian-fixup.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sysinit.target.wants/debian-fixup.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/halt-local.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/rc-local.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/rc.local.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/mail-transport-agent.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/nss-lookup.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/rpcbind.target' removed 'lib/systemd/system/bootlogd.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/bootlogs.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/bootmisc.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/checkfs.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/checkroot-bootclean.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/checkroot.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/fuse.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/halt.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/hostname.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/hwclock.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/hwclockfirst.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/killprocs.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/kmod.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/module-init-tools.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/motd.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/mountall-bootclean.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/mountall.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/mountdevsubfs.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/mountkernfs.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/mountnfs-bootclean.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/mountnfs.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/procps.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/reboot.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/rmnologin.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/sendsigs.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/single.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/stop-bootlogd-single.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/stop-bootlogd.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/umountfs.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/umountnfs.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/umountroot.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/x11-common.service' removed 'etc/systemd/system/halt.target.wants/hwclock-save.service' removed 'etc/systemd/system/poweroff.target.wants/hwclock-save.service' removed 'etc/systemd/system/reboot.target.wants/hwclock-save.service' removed 'lib/systemd/system/hwclock-save.service' If we look at *all* of Debian, we can quickly see what needs unit files: -bash4$ zgrep --no-filename /srv/apt/debian*/dists/testing*/main/Contents-amd64.gz -E -e ^lib/systemd/system/ | grep -vE -e admin/systemd$ | sort -u | wc -l 944 -bash4$ zgrep --no-filename /srv/apt/debian*/dists/stable*/main/Contents-amd64.gz -E -e ^lib/systemd/system/ | grep -vE -e admin/systemd$ | sort -u | wc -l 426 -bash4$ zgrep --no-filename /srv/apt/debian*/dists/stable*/main/Contents-amd64.gz -E -e ^etc/init.d/ | grep -vE -e admin/systemd$ | sort -u | wc -l 1165 -bash4$ zgrep --no-filename /srv/apt/debian*/dists/oldstable*/main/Contents-amd64.gz -E -e ^etc/init.d/ | grep -vE -e admin/systemd$ | sort -u | wc -l 1080 i.e. to fully support a new init system on Debian, you need to write around a thousand services. When Debian 8 was released, about half the packages had native systemd units, the other half relied on systemd's partial sysvinit backcompat. By today's Debian 9, almost all have native units.
PPS: systemd really wants to be in charge of the initrd, too.
I have no problem with it wanting. ;->
(With luck, my next server build won't need an initrd. I'm going to see if I can just compile in what the machine needs.)
I trust you already know about make localmodconfig / localyesconfig and LSMOD=./lsmod-otherhost-stdout.txt I've tried this in the past and it mostly works. The main reason to keep an initrd around in such cases is when the root filesystem is on an LUKS or RAID or btrfs or zfs. It's also convenient for emergency debugging, but >meh< you can always just keep a live CD in /boot or the UEFI ESP.
though for my own uses on servers, it looks _way_ overengineered.
Strongly recommend you check out busybox mdev, then. I've had good reports from a couple of friends with, um, similar temperaments to yours :-)
What I'll be using on my upcoming server rebuild will depend on testing, but the first thing I'll be trying is just plain static /dev . If there turn out to be problems with that, I'd have a go with mdev -- and I strongly doubt that there'll be any need whatsoever for anything more complicated than that.
Ah yeah purely static /dev should be about as good, for you. IIRC mdev is mainly about letting the kernel auto-create devices in /dev (devfs?) and then mdev just loosening the permissions, e.g. "chgrp -h audio /dev/snd/*". If yours is literally static (& persistent), and the kernel isn't creating new devices, you can probably just do that by hand. I don't remember why I dismissed that for my own schemes...
Back a number of years ago on Don Marti's linux-elitists mailing list, I remember politely questioning whether then-new udev was actually necessary, especially on servers, and Greg K-H rather hotly responded with a well-practiced tale of how it was needed so that his daughter could connect and disconnect USB printers without needing to wield root authority.
I was impressed by the passion in his defence of his daughter's interests, so much so that I was very gentle when I told Greg that his daughter would not be permitted to connect her USB printer to my server.
Thank you, I enjoyed that anecdote immensely :-)
Quoting Trent W. Buck (trentbuck@gmail.com):
For hard numbers, I'll look at two Debian 8 systemd systems I have in front of me: a shell server and a locked-down diskless GUI kiosk.
Basic Debian 8 install, w/o GUI, w/ NFS client, w/ ISC NTP client:
root@zygon:~# systemctl list-units | wc -l 89 root@zygon:~# systemctl list-unit-files | wc -l 208
Goodness, that certainly is a lot. The linuxmafia.com server box sending this message has 22 services it starts up, though that includes a few things that aren't really services. sysklogd klogd bind9 ssh spamassassin exim4 hotkey-setup mailman mysql netdiag rsync sysstat vsftpd ntp mdadm bootlogs atd cron apache2 rc.local rmnologin stop-bootlogd My Debian desktop systems (typically Window Maker with no DE) tend to have fewer. Anyhow, all I was basically saying that if I had to tweak custom runit (for example) plumbing for 22 local services, that would be no big deal for me.
i.e. to fully support a new init system on Debian, you need to write around a thousand services.
Well, above illustrates why I think otherwise. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure how.
I trust you already know about make localmodconfig / localyesconfig and LSMOD=./lsmod-otherhost-stdout.txt
I've tried this in the past and it mostly works.
I read articles about this, and it definitely kicks derriere.
The main reason to keep an initrd around in such cases is when the root filesystem is on an LUKS or RAID or btrfs or zfs.
I'll definitely have the root FS on RAID1, but I'm pretty sure I'll have no problem with getting to that from maintenance media -- but I'll check and make sure.
Strongly recommend you check out busybox mdev, then. I've had good reports from a couple of friends with, um, similar temperaments to yours :-)
Yeah, strongly leaning towards that or static dev.
Ah yeah purely static /dev should be about as good, for you.
IIRC mdev is mainly about letting the kernel auto-create devices in /dev (devfs?) and then mdev just loosening the permissions, e.g. "chgrp -h audio /dev/snd/*".
If yours is literally static (& persistent), and the kernel isn't creating new devices, you can probably just do that by hand.
mknod and kin still work!
Thank you, I enjoyed that anecdote immensely :-)
I had the feeling I was hearing a 'witnessing'.
Rick Moen via luv-talk wrote:
Anyhow, all I was basically saying that if I had to tweak custom runit (for example) plumbing for 22 local services, that would be no big deal for me.
i.e. to fully support a new init system on Debian, you need to write around a thousand services.
Well, above illustrates why I think otherwise. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure how.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. To support a basic server you might need 22 (you) or 89 (me) services. To support *every* package in Debian, you need about 1000 services.
Quoting Trent W. Buck (trentbuck@gmail.com):
Sorry, I wasn't clear. To support a basic server you might need 22 (you) or 89 (me) services. To support *every* package in Debian, you need about 1000 services.
Yes, noted. This is why I tried to carefully disambiguate between what I was saying was trivial (backfilling missing init plumbing on a specific local system of mine) and what I was _not_ claiming is trivial (backfilling such plumbing for every service a distro packages).
participants (5)
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Andrew McGlashan -
Brian May -
Rick Moen -
Russell Coker -
Trent W. Buck