Re: [luv-talk] Fwd: Victorian Liberals want to privatise ABC and SBS
Quoting "Peter Ross" <petros@fdrive.com.au>:
In spite of this Cuba is competing well with the US and I think we should look carefully at their example for ideas that are worth copying.
Well, compare it with Haiti which had similar starting points in the late 50ies. I lived with a "Cuba-style" health care system in Communist East Germany, and it worked quite well. I never had to deal with any "where to go/how to spend money/where to claim/what can I afford" problems I am having now. When I was ill I went to a hospital which had all needed facilities under one roof. I saw a specialist in less than hour. My first "Western" experience after unification was an Odyssey of errors. It took three days until I saw an orthopedian to see what was wrong with my knee. I worked in West Berlin and had my flat in the East - the accident happened at work so I was treated (and not even properly diagnosed) in the West. The proper treatment happened after I was released there and still had problems and went to the doctor in the former Communist East - two hours later I had an operation in the hospital in the East. The teeth of the Big Issue seller in Clifton Hill are absolutely rotten, he has frequent toothaches and cannot afford to go to the dentist. He saves for a trip to Malaysia to get it fixed.. BTW: I read once that in old China the doctor was paid money when the patient was healthy (not when he was sick).. Sounds like a good idea in principle but I don't know whether it would be feasible to implement in modern society. Regards Peter
Petros wrote:
BTW: I read once that in old China the doctor was paid money when the patient was healthy (not when he was sick).. Sounds like a good idea in principle but I don't know whether it would be feasible to implement in modern society.
The way I heard it, is that they do it *today*, and basically they say "you get $x/year, less $y per day of sick leave taken by your patient cohort". I can see that particular metric backfiring, but not any worse than what we have, where the only thing stopping a doctor deliberately keeping you mildly ill (so you keep coming back) is his ethics.
On Fri, 24 May 2013, "Trent W. Buck" <trentbuck@gmail.com> wrote:
I can see that particular metric backfiring, but not any worse than what we have, where the only thing stopping a doctor deliberately keeping you mildly ill (so you keep coming back) is his ethics.
I've not seen any evidence of anyone in the medical profession having a lack of customers. When you make an appointment with a GP you usually have to book a day or two in advance if it's not urgent and then there's a big waiting room. Hospital emergency rooms have huge queues, it can be hours to wait if you aren't about to die. You may have to wait years for supposedly optional surgery that merely affects your quality of life. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
I lived with one in Soviet Union and it worked really well - if you don't account for patient experience or outcomes. From early school years I learnt not to care too much about such things as anaesthesia when visiting a dentist. And my grandmother died after botched appendicitis surgery. But hey, no hassle with claims, and everything was free, as in free beer! -----Original Message----- From: luv-talk-bounces@lists.luv.asn.au [mailto:luv-talk-bounces@lists.luv.asn.au] On Behalf Of Petros I lived with a "Cuba-style" health care system in Communist East Germany, and it worked quite well. "This e-mail and any attachments to it (the "Communication") is, unless otherwise stated, confidential, may contain copyright material and is for the use only of the intended recipient. If you receive the Communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete the Communication and the return e-mail, and do not read, copy, retransmit or otherwise deal with it. Any views expressed in the Communication are those of the individual sender only, unless expressly stated to be those of Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Limited ABN 11 005 357 522, or any of its related entities including ANZ Bank New Zealand Limited (together "ANZ"). ANZ does not accept liability in connection with the integrity of or errors in the Communication, computer virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from or in respect of the Communication."
On Fri, 24 May 2013, "Pidgorny, Slav (GEUS)" <slav.pidgorny@anz.com> wrote:
I lived with one in Soviet Union and it worked really well - if you don't account for patient experience or outcomes. From early school years I learnt not to care too much about such things as anaesthesia when visiting a dentist. And my grandmother died after botched appendicitis surgery. But hey, no hassle with claims, and everything was free, as in free beer!
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/rs.html http://tinyurl.com/psqnn6t The Russian life expectancy is still only 69, so whatever they are doing now it's apparently not working too well. The second URL above has the CIA ranking of countries according to life expectancy. Cuba is #59 and Russia is #152. If the Russian government cared about the welfare of their people then they would look at the examples of Cuba and Germany. However it appears that modern Russia is what the libertarians aspire to, so it seems unlikely that they will improve things. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
It's a bit too simplistic to equate Soviet Union to Russia. Georgia was also a part of USSR and now is #65 in the world. And they have been through wars and occupation. Medicine is just one of factors in life expectancy. Things like Caribbean climate may help. Regards Slav -----Original Message----- From: Russell Coker [mailto:russell@coker.com.au] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/rs.html http://tinyurl.com/psqnn6t The Russian life expectancy is still only 69, so whatever they are doing now it's apparently not working too well. The second URL above has the CIA ranking of countries according to life expectancy. Cuba is #59 and Russia is #152. If the Russian government cared about the welfare of their people then they would look at the examples of Cuba and Germany. However it appears that modern Russia is what the libertarians aspire to, so it seems unlikely that they will improve things. "This e-mail and any attachments to it (the "Communication") is, unless otherwise stated, confidential, may contain copyright material and is for the use only of the intended recipient. If you receive the Communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete the Communication and the return e-mail, and do not read, copy, retransmit or otherwise deal with it. Any views expressed in the Communication are those of the individual sender only, unless expressly stated to be those of Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Limited ABN 11 005 357 522, or any of its related entities including ANZ Bank New Zealand Limited (together "ANZ"). ANZ does not accept liability in connection with the integrity of or errors in the Communication, computer virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from or in respect of the Communication."
Quoting Petros (Petros.Listig@fdrive.com.au):
BTW: I read once that in old China the doctor was paid money when the patient was healthy (not when he was sick).. Sounds like a good idea in principle but I don't know whether it would be feasible to implement in modern society.
I'm reminded of the ancient Temple of Asclepius (god or healing) in Epidauros: Aspiring visitors needed to climb a long staircase to reach the priests and plead their case. So, the temple design rather brilliantly weeded out many of those troublesom _ill_ people. My friend Wallce Sampson, MD (surgeon oncologist at Stanford) once proposed a sure-fire design for a crank medical regime based on that general idea. The nature of the nostrum handed out doesn't actually matter very much. The secret lies in case management: Patient arrives and is treated. Time passes. Case #1: Patient gets better. Victory! Claim credit. Case #2: Patient gets worse. Too bad. When patient dies, life is full of tragedies, but patient can no longer complain. Case #3: Patient remains about the same. State it's too bad patient delayed so long, and up the dose. Iterate.
participants (5)
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Petros -
Pidgorny, Slav (GEUS) -
Rick Moen -
Russell Coker -
Trent W. Buck