Re: [luv-talk] Action Needed: What we can do to stop the data retention bill in the next few days
From: "Lev Lafayette" <lev@levlafayette.com>
On Wed, November 5, 2014 4:40 pm, Aryan Ameri wrote:
So I went to three Victorian Labor Senators' offices and my local MP's office today to talk about data retention. ...
Even if Labor ends up supporting the bill, at least my conscience is clear that I did something. In years to come, at least I can say, I tried.
Good on you Aryan. That's the sort of involved citizenship we need to see more of. Because that is what makes a difference.
For a few years the name Melissa Parke "pops up" if it comes to matters like treatment of refugees and recently privacy, e.g. http://www.melissaparke.com.au/speeches/614-restricting-freedom-privacy-coul... She seems to be one of the few Labor members in parliament which are not completely overwhelmed by fear to say "unpopular" words and let her conscience speak. Politicians like her good do with a bit of public support, I think. In my eyes Labor is a disaster if it comes to explain what matters. That makes them less electable than a party which would know and explain why it supports certain matters. Hoping that privacy issues or refugee issues "go away" does not help. It is a strategy worth of an ostrich. The current government would be called right extremists in Germany. It is plainly shocking how far Brandis, Morrison, Pyke etc. pushed the Liberals to the right. The word Liberal is completely misleading. This word would disappear from the political landscape of Australia if parties had to declare the ingredients on the label. Regards Peter
I have no faith in any politician in AU at this time -- they are all branded with the same brush; although the lesser evil in my opinion right now is Labor but they are doing so badly that it doesn't give much hope for politics in AU. Never the less, I can't stand Abbot, Bishop (either of them), Pyne, Hockey, Turncoat or Brandis ... just to get started -- none of them. At least we can, hopefully, expect to see a change of Victorian government very soon, pity it won't happen federally for an eternity (a year with the current mob is already too long and seems like an eternity). A.
Yeah Andrew, like the eternity that WAS Labor federally, and the disaster that awaits with Labor in Victoria. I don't like Dennis Napthine and I don't like the policies of the current Victorian government, but the Labor governments have been terrible. Their policies are, on the surface, "wonderful", but are generally unfunded, except by deficit budgets, funded by increasing debt. I don't know what's worse, a Liberal/National government which doesn't give a stuff about the environment and human rights, or a Labor/Greens government that doesn't give a stuff about the economy. On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Andrew McGlashan < andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> wrote:
I have no faith in any politician in AU at this time -- they are all branded with the same brush; although the lesser evil in my opinion right now is Labor but they are doing so badly that it doesn't give much hope for politics in AU. Never the less, I can't stand Abbot, Bishop (either of them), Pyne, Hockey, Turncoat or Brandis ... just to get started -- none of them.
At least we can, hopefully, expect to see a change of Victorian government very soon, pity it won't happen federally for an eternity (a year with the current mob is already too long and seems like an eternity).
A.
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On 6/11/2014 9:09 AM, Michael Scott wrote:
I don't like Dennis Napthine and I don't like the policies of the current Victorian government, but the Labor governments have been terrible. Their policies are, on the surface, "wonderful", but are generally unfunded, except by deficit budgets, funded by increasing debt.
I can't get over all the blatant lies that the Napthine government are sprouting on television adverts and the huge splash of political advertising on billboards everywhere -- talk about utter waste; this government is a lost cause, stop wasting our monies. Why in the hell did they sign contracts that they know damn well will be rescinded once Labor gets in [unless it is made impossible] -- we DO NOT NEED or WANT EAST-WEST link .... It was even very cringe worthy to see Abbot throw his arm around Napthine, whom seemed to disgusted by the action himself. A.
On Thu, November 6, 2014 9:09 am, Michael Scott wrote:
I don't know what's worse, a Liberal/National government which doesn't give a stuff about the environment and human rights, or a Labor/Greens government that doesn't give a stuff about the economy.
Michael, I have to ask... What in particular about the management of the economy by the last Federal Labor government has raised such ire? Most observers in economic matters view it quite positively. -- Lev Lafayette, BA (Hons), GradCertTerAdEd (Murdoch), GradCertPM, MBA (Tech Mngmnt) (Chifley) mobile: 0432 255 208 RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt
As the metadata retention plans are essentially bipartisan, would the conversation on which party is worse be more appropriate in a new thread (mods)?
On 6/11/2014 9:52 AM, thelionroars wrote:
As the metadata retention plans are essentially bipartisan, would the conversation on which party is worse be more appropriate in a new thread (mods)?
The sad thing is, there are more horrid things that are bipartisan at this time .... but we aren't going to get a parliament of independents with a collective conscience worth anything. So, right now, the lesser of the evil twins is not what we have right now. A.
On Thu Nov 06 2014 at 09:52:49 thelionroars <thelionroars1337@gmail.com> wrote:
As the metadata retention plans are essentially bipartisan, would the conversation on which party is worse be more appropriate in a new thread (mods)?
I very much second this. I started this discussion for a specific reason: there is a bill in front of Parliament that is bad policy in every sense. I think whichever party we like or dislike, we can agree on that. The specifics on this are that the Greens and a couple of independent Senators oppose it. The Liberal party favours it. The ALP's position is not set yet. There is a chance that by lobbying Labor parliamentarians, especially Senators, this bill might be defeated in the Senate. The fact that this discussion didn't stay on topic for more than two posts, and quickly descended into Liberal vs. Labor is exactly why we can't organise and achieve anything politically. Please start a new conversation to talk about past management of fiscal issues between ALP vs Libs and all other off topic issues. If you care about this specific bill, and have something to contribute to it, then great. Cheers -- Aryan Ameri
On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 01:32:12AM +0000 Aryan Ameri said:
On Thu Nov 06 2014 at 09:52:49 thelionroars <thelionroars1337@gmail.com> wrote:
As the metadata retention plans are essentially bipartisan, would the conversation on which party is worse be more appropriate in a new thread (mods)?
I very much second this.
I started this discussion for a specific reason: there is a bill in front of Parliament that is bad policy in every sense. I think whichever party we like or dislike, we can agree on that.
The specifics on this are that the Greens and a couple of independent Senators oppose it. The Liberal party favours it. The ALP's position is not set yet. There is a chance that by lobbying Labor parliamentarians, especially Senators, this bill might be defeated in the Senate.
The fact that this discussion didn't stay on topic for more than two posts, and quickly descended into Liberal vs. Labor is exactly why we can't organise and achieve anything politically.
Please start a new conversation to talk about past management of fiscal issues between ALP vs Libs and all other off topic issues. If you care about this specific bill, and have something to contribute to it, then great.
What follows are my personal opinions. Data retention is a dangerous thing: numerous innocent people will get caught up in the bureaucratic mess because of incompetent government employees. I think that Aryan has done the right thing. It is a good idea to call up local senators or MPs and let them know what you think. Remember, it is the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. If Labor does not vote against the data retention bill, it will lose a lot of votes to the Greens. It is good to remind Labor politicians about this. Sam
Hi Lev, I would mention the "investment" in school halls as just one issue. The insulation batts, as another. Perhaps even the $900 taxpayers' bonus. I don't know whether any of the above helped in staving off the GFC in Australia, but a great deal of it was wasted and now the ALP, with its friends in the Senate, are blocking any attempt by the coalition to alleviate the damage caused. On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Lev Lafayette <lev@levlafayette.com> wrote:
On Thu, November 6, 2014 9:09 am, Michael Scott wrote:
I don't know what's worse, a Liberal/National government which doesn't give a stuff about the environment and human rights, or a Labor/Greens government that doesn't give a stuff about the economy.
Michael, I have to ask... What in particular about the management of the economy by the last Federal Labor government has raised such ire? Most observers in economic matters view it quite positively.
-- Lev Lafayette, BA (Hons), GradCertTerAdEd (Murdoch), GradCertPM, MBA (Tech Mngmnt) (Chifley) mobile: 0432 255 208 RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt
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On Thu, November 6, 2014 12:19 pm, Michael Scott wrote:
I would mention the "investment" in school halls as just one issue. The insulation batts, as another. Perhaps even the $900 taxpayers' bonus.
Most of which were good measures. Our economy went The capital investment of the BER ("the school halls") had a 97% success rate, according to the BER Implementation Taskforce report. The Home Insulation Scheme was a great success and whilst it is unpopular to say so, it saved lives (see http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/02/24/did-the-insulation-program-a...). Granted the government was utterly weak on the issue and went to water when confronted with the prospect of defending a complex truth against a simple lie. I'm not so sure about the taxpayer's bonus tho'. Proportionally it was better for those on low incomes and certainly did help out local retail. Overall the following article by Alan Austin illustrates piece-by-piece how the picture of Labor being poor economic managers and the LNP as being good managers is less than accurate. http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/we-really-must... -- Lev Lafayette, BA (Hons), GradCertTerAdEd (Murdoch), GradCertPM, MBA (Tech Mngmnt) (Chifley) mobile: 0432 255 208 RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt
On 6/11/2014 12:53 PM, Lev Lafayette wrote:
On Thu, November 6, 2014 12:19 pm, Michael Scott wrote:
I would mention the "investment" in school halls as just one issue. The insulation batts, as another. Perhaps even the $900 taxpayers' bonus.
Most of which were good measures. Our economy went
Absolutely.
The capital investment of the BER ("the school halls") had a 97% success rate, according to the BER Implementation Taskforce report.
It is a miracle that 97% success with a rough 50/50 election outcome -- if it was near as bad as Michael and the other LNP supporters that clearly seem to have been brainwashed to believe, then the success rate would have been more like 30-40% ... that's taking a bunch of ALP supporters along for the ride. But it wasn't so low, was it? It was an extraordinarily hi success rate for ANY program.
The Home Insulation Scheme was a great success and whilst it is unpopular to say so, it saved lives (see http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/02/24/did-the-insulation-program-a...).
Absolutely, I don't see how this was a "government" fault, rather the fault of unscrupulous businesses taking full advantage of the nation building program and destroying it through the incompetence of those businesses -- they should have had properly trained employees and they should take the blame for the vast majority of the so-called problems of the installation batts situation.
Granted the government was utterly weak on the issue and went to water when confronted with the prospect of defending a complex truth against a simple lie.
I'm not so sure about the taxpayer's bonus tho'. Proportionally it was better for those on low incomes and certainly did help out local retail.
Overall the following article by Alan Austin illustrates piece-by-piece how the picture of Labor being poor economic managers and the LNP as being good managers is less than accurate.
http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/we-really-must...
Howard, lies and more lies and Abbot is far worse -- who would have thought that would be possible? It only took about 20 years before "John Howard" was finally considered "good enough" to be the LNP leader... he inherited so much good work from Paul Keating and took credit for things that the LNP were not responsible for. The lies are coming from just about every mouth in LNP at this time and the last year has shown Australia to be in diabolical trouble as a result, the world laughs at our incredibly stupid PM and his actions as well as his lack of action. The NBN has been all but wrecked by the complete fools in charge now and there delaying tactics before they /won/ the last federal election on false premises and loads more lies. The election before that Labor formed minority government showed up Abbot's huge black hole and extreme promises to do ANYTHING to be PM back then -- fortunately the independents helped, but all the negative and lies of the LNP opposition were extremely destructive ... and their destruction continues in office. LNP are wrecking Australia good and proper. A.
On 6/11/2014 2:00 PM, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
On 6/11/2014 12:53 PM, Lev Lafayette wrote:
Granted the government was utterly weak on the issue and went to water when confronted with the prospect of defending a complex truth against a simple lie.
This was absolutely where Labor was incompetent to the extreme, but they also knew they were fighting Murdoch all along -- still, they didn't manage to set the record straight on this and many other lies .... that was very unfortunate, very stupid and extremely arrogant. Hence why there was a problem at election time that was far greater than it should have ever been. The damage was done and not managed, too many people fell for the lies and together with the inability to set the record straight, well we got we we got and now we suffer. A.
On 6 Nov 2014, at 3:09 am, Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> wrote:
I have no faith in any politician in AU at this time -- they are all branded with the same brush; although the lesser evil in my opinion right now is Labor but they are doing so badly that it doesn't give much hope for politics in AU. Never the less, I can't stand Abbot, Bishop (either of them), Pyne, Hockey, Turncoat or Brandis ... just to get started -- none of them.
At least we can, hopefully, expect to see a change of Victorian government very soon, pity it won't happen federally for an eternity (a year with the current mob is already too long and seems like an eternity).
A.
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I believe there are some relatively small political forces that would be greatly affected by this issue (the Pirate Party?). There could be other similar groups. The Pirate Party has unfortunate name, in my opinion. I also understand there was an EFF statement released yesterday (it was on reddit last night). I expect no positive response from either of the major political parties. We could however react in the media, newspapers etc. Data retention and all the other baggage that comes with it is at the back of the anti-terrorism push. Anti-terrorism just gives carte blanche to tighten the grip on personal freedoms. Remember Sept 11th? DB
participants (8)
-
Andrew McGlashan -
Aryan Ameri -
Davor Balder -
Lev Lafayette -
Michael Scott -
Peter Ross -
Sam Varghese -
thelionroars