Andrew McGlashan via luv-talk <luv-talk@luv.asn.au> writes:

What you really want to know is the sync rates of your connection; then speed test after that.

What I am getting now (download/upload speeds): Attainable Rate (Kpbs): 18724/1070 Rate (Kpbs): 17406/1083 Speedtest.net (Mpbs) 4.73/0.71 More details in attached screen shot.

The sync rates may be lower due to interference from the FTTN and any phones lines that the FTTN box doesn't control.

At present time, FTTN is not yet operational (won't be until mid next year according to NBN website), despite the NBN cabinet being in place now.

When it is all FTTN for your area, they are expected to increase the voltage on the lines, which will improve VDSL connections and speeds; in the meantime they need to keep the voltages lower so as to lessen interference with existing ADSL services.

OK, interesting. -- Brian May <brian@linuxpenguins.xyz> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hi Brian, Okay, the attainable dl rate is slightly lower than the actual sync rate, which is usual -- and not much real difference. But your dl speed result is very poor for the connection. Whom is the ISP? And did the poor speeds only happen fairly recently, or has been like a yoyo over the years? I remember TPG was very, very poor which lead to loads of people dropping off, then it become good until the cycle repeated. Don't think that will be a problem for TPG these days, but I don't have any direct experience with them since way, way back. Cheers A. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXcAynAAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +yALAP0ZSa91W4oI7gJUn+6PTgELQccR2LRuqGWqVMuK29tM/AD+Kziv47zSbq4W Qb6YaNumUGC52eod8gQ1KM/g9QFwolg= =STkB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 5/11/19 9:51 am, Brian May via luv-talk wrote:

Internode (or whatever you want to call them these days...). My download > speeds have been gradually dropping, but in recent weeks really drop during peak periods. Yes, that is one of the unfortunate things about the NBN -- certain decisions resulted in much less competition; too many PoIs (points of interconnect).

Internode, along with Westnet were two of the very best ISPs for customer support -- sadly they are now just part of TPG, which was iiBorg before, so sad :( Are you still able to contact "Internode" and get anywhere near the level of support of Internode of old?

Now getting 14.51/0.82 with speedtest. Okay, those speeds are okay.

Cheers A. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXcGB4QAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +xGRAP9ocVcbmiIOc847hHUD6xJ+W995EApioRQx4s6aq5n6HwEAptGF1Ln4SMVG SM7wrdvf8PsrvqFFIinmV98HJMqOzis= =ISue -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Brian May <brian@linuxpenguins.xyz> writes:

Attainable Rate (Kpbs): 18724/1070 Rate (Kpbs): 17406/1083 Speedtest.net (Mpbs) 4.73/0.71

Now I am getting a maximum sync speed of 8Mbps. :-( Performance is terrible, and often under 1Mbps download. Internode have got me to test with different telephone cable and without ADSL filter. Next step will be to try with another ADSL modem. Fortunately I have such a modem spare (assuming it still works...) At one stage there was no dial tone, so I thought getting them to fix that would fix ADSL too, but no change. Curiously Internode said Telstra would fix this, but it was an NBN technician who came... Odd. No NBN in our area yet. -- Brian May <brian@linuxpenguins.xyz> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/

On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 04:55:55PM +1100, Brian May wrote:

My theory is that with a bridged/PPPOE setup I was getting a lot of queuing of outgoing packets, which led to large latencies, and that the routed setup is better. I did try solving this by setting up QOS, but with the speed changing so much this didn't work anymore, and I don't particularly want to have to keep monitoring this.

I never noticed anything like that with my bridged pppoe connection (also using a very old billion modem). I always had good performance. Was getting almost 16 Mbpbs down and 1.1 Mbps up until about a year or so ago when NBN contractors came to prepare the street for NBN (FTTC). They negligently disconnected me twice while doing that (several days outage both times). After that, I never got better than 11 Mbps down. Coincidentally, that was just good enough that I couldn't insist that it be fixed. what kind of cpu did your linux router have? what else was it doing? my pppoe box was running on an AMD Phenom II 1090T, which was running lots of other stuff (apache, squid, bind, nfs, samba, asterisk, kvm, docker, gitlab, fail2ban, and more). Did you reduce the MTU and MRU to account for the pppoe overhead? i had mine set to 1412. BTW, you also have to set the MTU on all machines behind the pppoe router - if they send 1500 byte packets to the router, they'll just be fragmented anyway. I'm no longer using PPPOE. I switched to NBN in Sep. I'm now using the same NIC that was plugged into my modem for my NBN link. It has no problem handling 100/40 NBN.

My Cisco 877 is past end of life[*], so would like to replace it with something more recent (and capable of NBN speeds for when I eventually get FTTN). Currently looking at the Cisco Rv134w-e-k9-au it appears it supports things like DHCPv6 PD. Apparently it is suppose to be able to cope with NBN 100/40 speeds (confirmation of this would be good...). One review says it requires regular reboots. It also doesn't run IOS - although if it does what I want that isn't a big concern. Might be better actually, looks like firmware updates can be downloaded free of charge.

IMO, you'd be much better off with a good 2nd NIC in your linux box, and have linux handle the routing, firewalling, etc. a cheap realtek nic like mine(*) would do, or use something better like an intel or broadcom. the higher end models of cisco and other brands of dedicated routers have some advantages with extremely large networks and complicated routing tables, but none at all for a small or medium-sized LAN. In fact, they're at a disadvantage because they have such under-powered (and over-priced) cpus in them. even a recent model home router (tp-link, asus, netgear, etc) running openwrt/lede would be better. i'm tempted to get one of these myself now that I no longer need ADSL, so that I can separate my server from my gateway box. (*) this machine will be upgraded to a ryzen 9 3xxx sometime next year (more & faster cores and threads will be nice, but i really want more RAM for ZFS ARC - DDR3 is both obsolete and expensive for 16 or 32GB sticks. DDR4 isn't). I'll be looking for a motherboard with at least one Intel NIC (not realtek), preferably two. If it only has one, I'll just get a PCI-e intel NIC for the NBN port - I found some on ebay last week for under $30 each from somewhere in china. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>

Brian May via luv-talk <luv-talk@luv.asn.au> wrote:

Unfortunately this company doesn't make anything that will terminate a ADSL/VDSL connection. Which is why I need the modem/router.

If you ultimately decide to acquire a separate ADSL modem and router, then my experience may be relevant. I have a Linksys WRT1900AC router running OpenWRT, which is giving good results on a cable connection. The cable modem is separate, of course.

Wonder how they compare the Cisco RV134W, which is also a low end VDSL2 modem/router. Apparently it is a Linux based OS, although I am doubtful of openwrt support. It also was wifi, which is not something I want.

There's also the Cisco 1100 series, running Cisco IOS. I haven't had any experience with those, and they're likely expensive.

Last time I went the openwrt route, I had a hard time trying to judge a product that is available,compatible, reliable, up-to-date, and sufficient for my requirements (would like one that can cope with NBN 100/40, although I am sceptical of ever reaching such speeds...).

The Linksys device that I mentioned is apparently intended to run OpenWRT, even though it isn't installed by default.

Apparently there are not many *DSL modems that support openwrt.

There used to be an ADSL 2+ PCI card. Perhaps there are newer models available now that support VDSL2, or whatever the NBN uses. In that case, a small Linux system would be quite viable.

On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 10:12:56AM -0500, Jason White wrote:

...

Apparently there are not many *DSL modems that support openwrt.

There used to be an ADSL 2+ PCI card. Perhaps there are newer models available now that support VDSL2, or whatever the NBN uses. In that case, a small Linux system would be quite viable.

Some still exist. Unfortunately, you won't find one for less than about $600, about 3-5 times the price of a current VDSL/ADSL capable router, many of which will WILL run openwrt. I **really** wanted one of these way back when, but my billion 7401 was much cheaper. I can't remember what I paid for it but it was under $200 - less than a third of the price of an ADSL PCI card. IIRC, a large part of the cost of the PCI card was in certification for connection to an australian phone line. Very expensive to do for small runs by a small company like Traverse Tech, much more affordable for consumer modems made by larger companies with the cost spread out over many more sales. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>

Craig Sanders via luv-talk wrote:

On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 10:12:56AM -0500, Jason White wrote:

...

...

Apparently there are not many *DSL modems that support openwrt.

There used to be an ADSL 2+ PCI card. Perhaps there are newer models available now that support VDSL2, or whatever the NBN uses. In that case, a small Linux system would be quite viable.

Some still exist. Unfortunately, you won't find one for less than about $600, about 3-5 times the price of a current VDSL/ADSL capable router, many of which will WILL run openwrt.

I **really** wanted one of these way back when, but my billion 7401 was much cheaper. I can't remember what I paid for it but it was under $200 - less than a third of the price of an ADSL PCI card.

I ran one in production for a while. It was a pain, because if the DSP chip got too confused, you'd have to power cycle the card. Which you could only do by power-cycling the entire host. So "just turn the bridging modem on and off again" became much more annoying "schedule a reboot of the main router". Compared to that, having a stupid consumer box dangling off the edge of my rack is a minor annoyance.

On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 11:30:09AM +1100, Trent W. Buck wrote:

Just get two separate devices:

* a VDSL modem, that you run in bridge mode and never touch again[0]; and * a router that can run OpenWRT well[1].

PPPoE happens on the OpenWRT router, so will Just Work.

what's the benefit of two devices, when there are lots of vdsl modem/routers with 128MB or 256MB RAM and 800+ Mhz multi-core CPUs that can run openwrt? That was some of the advice I got when i was looking into getting one in 2018 in preparation for NBN(*). which made no sense at all to me - why have two devices to perform to very closely related functions when there should be no problem running both functions on one device? it might have made sense when such devices were puny ~100Mhz devices with 16MB or so, but the modern versions are far more powerful. (*) turns out i didn't need a vdsl modem because FTTC. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>

On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 11:39:54AM +1100, Brian May wrote:

This is my router:

https://www.ui.com/edgemax/edgerouter-pro/

I am not sure what its CPU is. I think though it should be able to cope with PPPOE at fast then 3Mbps.

If they don't list the specs, they're probably not very good.

...

...

My Cisco 877 is past end of life[*], so would like to replace it with something more recent (and capable of NBN speeds for when I eventually get FTTN). Currently looking at the Cisco Rv134w-e-k9-au it appears it supports [...]

IMO, you'd be much better off with a good 2nd NIC in your linux box, and have linux handle the routing, firewalling, etc. a cheap realtek nic like mine(*) would do, or use something better like an intel or broadcom.

This isn't going to help. I still need something to terminate the *DSL connection.

The 2nd NIC is for plugging an adsl modem. e.g. my setup was that I had eth0 for my LAN and eth1 for my billion 7404 in dumb bridged mode. pppoe ran on eth1. I assumed that you had a similar setup, didn't realise you had an edgerouter. IMO, you're better off with a little linux box with two good ethernet ports (intel or similar) than with either the edgerouter or the cisco. there was a thread here a year ago about some very nice low-power AMD APU models (which are now long-obsolete), but you could build something similar with a ryzen 3200G or similar APU for not much more than a Cisco RV345 ($389). CPU $145 + about $150 for a motherboard + RAM (about $60 for 2x4GB) + case & PSU (varies). depending on whether the m/b has two NICs, you might need to buy a second one. you could shave off $100 or maybe $150 if you look on ebay for second-hand last gen (Zen 1 or Zen+) ryzen APU systems. lots of people built low-end gaming rigs with the ryzen APUs and will be looking to upgrade to Zen 2. or build something out of spare parts for next to nothing :) but you don't need to spend that much - see below.

...

even a recent model home router (tp-link, asus, netgear, etc) running openwrt/lede would be better. i'm tempted to get one of these myself now that I no longer need ADSL, so that I can separate my server from my gateway box.

Won't these all have poor CPUs and reliability?

They're getting pretty good. Most current models have 2 or 4 core ARM or MIPS CPUs running at 700 - 1000 Mhz. Probably better than your edgerouter. and your cisco 877. Given that I used to build internet gateway boxes for entire schools on 386 or 486 CPUs running at 100 Mhz or less (and also running bind & squid and apache and other stuff) back in the 90s, that should be more than adequate for a home network. For about $150 you can get a openwrt router (TP-Link, Asus, Netgear, D-Link, etc) with a VDSL modem and 4 or 5 gigabit ports. Most VDSL chipsets also do ADSL2 - but it's worthwhile checking whether the model you're considering supports ADSL. If your NBN service is either FTTC or FTTP, you won't need the modem after you upgrade to NBN. If it's FTTN, you will need VDSL. some examples: $ msygrep -p gigabit router vdsl 129 D-Link (DSL-3785) Wireless AC1200 Dual Band MU-MIMO Gigabit VDSL/ADSL2+ Modem Router 139 Asus (AS-DSL-AC52U) Dual-Band Wireless AC750 VDSL / ADSL2+ Modem Router + 4 x Gigabit Switch 149 TP-LINK (Archer VR400) AC1200 Wireless Dual Band VDSL/ADSL Modem Router with Gigabit Ports 169 TP-LINK (Archer VR500v) AC1200 Wireless Dual Band VoIP VDSL/ADSL Modem Router 4 Gigabit Ports 175 D-Link (DSL-2888A) PYTHON Wireless AC1600 Dual Band VDSL/ADSL2+ Modem Router + 4 x Gigabit Switch 189 TP-LINK (Archer VR600) AC1600 Wireless Dual Band VDSL/ADSL Modem Router with 4 x Gigabit + USB 199 TP-LINK (Archer VR600v) AC1600 Wireless VoIP VDSL/ADSL Modem Router with 4 Gigabit Ports 219 TP-LINK (Archer VR900) AC1900 Wireless Dual Band VDSL/ADSL Modem Router with Gigabit Ports 429 Asus (DSL-AC88U) AC3100 Dual Band VDSL/ADSL Gigabit WiFi Modem Router It's possible to find slightly cheaper models without wifi, but you don't save much. it's easier to just disable/ignore the wifi iface if you don't need it. i had my house wired with cat-6 back in 2000, but I find wifi useful for phones and tablets. Last I looked into it, the Asus models have little or no support from openwrt/lede but some of the TP-Link and D-Link models were supported. That was about a year ago, so things have probably improved since then. I'm tempted to get one of these myself so I can move the routing and firewalling functions off my server, and on to a dedicated box. It's not good practice to have server and firewall in one unit, but until recently the available routers were either grossly underpowered or grotesquely over-priced. I'm still not entirely convinced that I wouldn't be better off just building a mini-itx ryzen APU box with two NICs. It would be massively overpowered for the job, and would cost twice as much or more, and use a lot more power but I could run debian on it instead of openwrt - for me, that's a **HUGE** benefit. OTOH, the little openwrt-capable boxes are cheap, tiny, use very little power, and are probably adequate for my NBN 100/40 connection....it's not like i'm maxing out the connection all the time, my usage is very bursty - occasional bursts of big downloads, but almost idle most of the time. And without the requirement for VDSL, I have a lot more options for a little router - starting from about $80.

Wonder how they compare the Cisco RV134W, which is also a low end VDSL2 modem/router. Apparently it is a Linux based OS, although I am doubtful of openwrt support. It also was wifi, which is not something I want.

probably at least as good at a fraction of the price. For cisco gear, you're paying mostly for the brand name....and that's especially true for cisco's little home routers, which are just linksys routers with cisco branding (cisco bought them out several years ago), and linksys stuff is basically the same as d-link, tp-link, etc. probably not as good, since they don't to compete with the others on specs & features due to the cisco branding.

Last time I went the openwrt route, I had a hard time trying to judge a product that is available,compatible, reliable, up-to-date, and sufficient for my requirements (would like one that can cope with NBN 100/40, although I am sceptical of ever reaching such speeds...). Apparently there are not many *DSL modems that support openwrt.

that was my problem for years. *wrt etc were focused on wifi, adsl was (at best) a secondary consideration.

Although I do trust openwrt more then some of the proprietary rubbish firmware I have seen. In the past some of the bugs I have seen in some versions of CISCO IOS amaze me, and make me think no testing was done.

I don't trust proprietary software at all. and especially not router firmware. it's why I won't ever use cisco or similar at home.

Hmm. Just found this post. The sender looks familiar :-). What did you end up using for a modem?

https://forum.openwrt.org/t/good-vdsl-modem-for-nbn-in-au-also-lede-fail2ban...

By the time NBN arrived here in Coburg, I figured out that I didn't need VDSL (because it's FTTC here, not FTTN, which presents an ethernet interface on the customer side). I switched over to NBN back in Sep this year - I just unplugged my Billion modem, plugged that NIC into the NBN box, and ran dhclient. There were a few teething problems for about a week, but it's been running fine since then. I switched from iinet to aussie broadband for NBN. iinet used to be good, but they got bought by TPG - they weren't able to route my /24 networks, and they weren't able to provide VOIP service unless I used the little router they provided with whatever insecure firmware it came with (not openwrt). They **had** been doing both of those things for me for nearly 10 years, but their NBN service was provisioned using TPG's system, not iinet's legacy system. I had to pay for a "business" service from ABB but that was only $10 more (or maybe $5, I can't remember) per month than "residential" to get the routing (they treated it as a variant of their "static IP" offering), but that was no bid deal - I was already paying extra at iinet for a business service. BTW, the answers I got from that post were mostly useless. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>