https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/10/silk_road-au.html Silk Road was a TOR based system for selling a variety of illegal products and services. It's recently been shut down by the police and the above article is one of many about it. One amusing thing is that the criminal responsible was a fan of Austrian economics. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
I figure you're not a fan of von Mises. Here we have an interesting example of association fallacy. Regards Slav
-----Original Message----- From: luv-talk-bounces@lists.luv.asn.au [mailto:luv-talk- bounces@lists.luv.asn.au] On Behalf Of Russell Coker
One amusing thing is that the criminal responsible was a fan of Austrian economics.
"This e-mail and any attachments to it (the "Communication") is, unless otherwise stated, confidential, may contain copyright material and is for the use only of the intended recipient. If you receive the Communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete the Communication and the return e-mail, and do not read, copy, retransmit or otherwise deal with it. Any views expressed in the Communication are those of the individual sender only, unless expressly stated to be those of Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Limited ABN 11 005 357 522, or any of its related entities including ANZ Bank New Zealand Limited (together "ANZ"). ANZ does not accept liability in connection with the integrity of or errors in the Communication, computer virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from or in respect of the Communication."
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014, "Pidgorny, Slav (GEUS)" <Slav.Pidgorny@anz.com> wrote:
I figure you're not a fan of von Mises. Here we have an interesting example of association fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy Above is a description of the Association Fallacy, you might want to read it. Note that while Austrian Economics is widely discredited I'm not using it to disparage the use of anonymous transactions or to promote the "war on drugs". In fact I believe that such chemicals should be on sale to any adult who wants to buy them! The laws against murder are good though so the case against Silk Road for facilitating the hire of hit men is reasonable. It's just amusing that someone uses bogus economic theories in support of a criminal business model, and particularly amusing when they weren't able to avoid getting caught. Please learn to quote correctly, it's not difficult. Also please note that when you send email to me you are contractually agreeing that I am not bound by any conditions in your .sig. If your employer doesn't accept that then you should be using a different account to send email to me.
-----Original Message----- From: luv-talk-bounces@lists.luv.asn.au [mailto:luv-talk- bounces@lists.luv.asn.au] On Behalf Of Russell Coker
One amusing thing is that the criminal responsible was a fan of Austrian economics.
"This e-mail and any attachments to it (the "Communication") is, unless otherwise stated, confidential, may contain copyright material and is for the use only of the intended recipient. If you receive the Communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete the Communication and the return e-mail, and do not read, copy, retransmit or otherwise deal with it. Any views expressed in the Communication are those of the individual sender only, unless expressly stated to be those of Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Limited ABN 11 005 357 522, or any of its related entities including ANZ Bank New Zealand Limited (together "ANZ"). ANZ does not accept liability in connection with the integrity of or errors in the Communication, computer virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from or in respect of the Communication." _______________________________________________ luv-talk mailing list luv-talk@lists.luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-talk
-- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
G'day:
-----Original Message----- From: Russell Coker [mailto:russell@coker.com.au]
Interesting, thank you.
Note that while Austrian Economics is widely discredited
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
It's just amusing that someone uses bogus economic theories in support of a criminal business model
"asserts that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another, merely by an irrelevant association". Source: your link. Regards Slav "This e-mail and any attachments to it (the "Communication") is, unless otherwise stated, confidential, may contain copyright material and is for the use only of the intended recipient. If you receive the Communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete the Communication and the return e-mail, and do not read, copy, retransmit or otherwise deal with it. Any views expressed in the Communication are those of the individual sender only, unless expressly stated to be those of Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Limited ABN 11 005 357 522, or any of its related entities including ANZ Bank New Zealand Limited (together "ANZ"). ANZ does not accept liability in connection with the integrity of or errors in the Communication, computer virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from or in respect of the Communication."
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014, "Pidgorny, Slav (GEUS)" <Slav.Pidgorny@anz.com> wrote:
G'day:
-----Original Message----- From: Russell Coker [mailto:russell@coker.com.au]
Interesting, thank you.
Note that while Austrian Economics is widely discredited
http://www.salon.com/2013/02/19/how_paul_krugman_broke_a_wikipedia_page_on_e... http://blog.rongarret.info/2013/03/murray-rothbard-was-idiot.html Above are a couple of good articles to read. There's lots more if you care to do a Google search.
It's just amusing that someone uses bogus economic theories in support of a criminal business model
"asserts that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another, merely by an irrelevant association". Source: your link.
Not at all. I don't think that there's anything criminal in Austrian Economics, it merely fails to predict the economy and is advocated by people who don't even understand other people.
"This e-mail and any attachments to it (the "Communication") is, unless otherwise stated, confidential, may contain copyright material and is for the use only of the intended recipient. If you receive the Communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete the Communication and the return e-mail, and do not read, copy, retransmit or otherwise deal with it. Any views expressed in the Communication are those of the individual sender only, unless expressly stated to be those of Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Limited ABN 11 005 357 522, or any of its related entities including ANZ Bank New Zealand Limited (together "ANZ"). ANZ does not accept liability in connection with the integrity of or errors in the Communication, computer virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from or in respect of the Communication." _______________________________________________
It's good that you have learned to quote properly. Now could you please ask the ANZ people to remove that .sig. It doesn't apply to me so there's no point in using it on posts to the list. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
On Thu, January 16, 2014 3:32 pm, Russell Coker wrote:
Note that while Austrian Economics is widely discredited ....
To be fair, *some* of the early contributions has been incorporated into mainstream economics, such as opportunity cost, which provides an excellent way to elaborate the labour theory of value (which most Austrian economic advocates would *not* like), and marginal analysis (which was "invented" simultaneously with other non-Austrian economists). The parts to stay away from our include their insistence on methodological individualism as a foundation point (which is completely wrong) and their refusal to accept empirical evidence in favour of the supposedly perfect methodology of praxeology (c.f., von Mises). Oh, and they're completely wrong on land economics as well. Murray Rothbard's critique of Henry George is an amazing example of a fundamental mistake in reasoning leads one to a parody of a conclusion. -- Lev Lafayette, BA (Hons), GradCertTerAdEd (Murdoch), GradCertPM, MBA (Tech Mngmnt) (Chifley) mobile: 0432 255 208 RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt
Russell Coker wrote:
It's just amusing that someone uses bogus economic theories in support of a criminal business model, and particularly amusing when they weren't able to avoid getting caught.
AFAICT, these two points are entirely orthogonal. It sounds like you're trying to imply that if he had a better economic model, he wouldn't have accidentally posted on a web forum with the wrong identity. I must have misunderstood, because that's silly. If your point is "he did a dumb thing AND believed a dumb thing!", I don't see why that's noteworthy.
On Thu, January 16, 2014 2:55 pm, Russell Coker wrote:
One amusing thing is that the criminal responsible was a fan of Austrian economics.
Why is that amusing? It is just the sort of the thing that such people advocate. I mean they're crazy as hell, but Silk Road is somewhat in line with their antagonism towards legal and fiat currency. OK, maybe the murder charge is out of order. Certainly they traditionally prefer more indirect methods to carry out killing. -- Lev Lafayette, BA (Hons), GradCertTerAdEd (Murdoch), GradCertPM, MBA (Tech Mngmnt) (Chifley) mobile: 0432 255 208 RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt
Lev Lafayette wrote:
On Thu, January 16, 2014 2:55 pm, Russell Coker wrote:
One amusing thing is that the criminal responsible was a fan of Austrian economics. Why is that amusing? It is just the sort of the thing that such people advocate.
I mean they're crazy as hell, but Silk Road is somewhat in line with their antagonism towards legal and fiat currency.
Well you might need to explain where that fits into their world-view; from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School I notice: "(1) Methodological Individualism: In the explanation of economic phenomena we have to go back to the actions (or inaction) of individuals; groups or "collectives" cannot act except through the actions of individual members........" Which seems like an extreme reductionist approach where a national economy is considered to be the sum of the actions of it's citizens; probably true, but of dubious utility. Bit like an attempt to formulate a gas law by summing the motions of individual molecules; instead of taking the statistical approach of kinematics. Of course extreme economic 'drys' would probably consider Al Capone a businessman; whose activities just happen to be illegal. /begin rant/ Personally I consider the whole free-market ideology particularly Adam Smith's notion of 'an invisible- hand', to be a pathetic, irresponsible, non-scientific delusion ! /end rant/ regards Rohan McLeod
On Thu, January 16, 2014 5:11 pm, Rohan McLeod wrote:
Well you might need to explain where that fits into their world-view; from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School I notice: "(1) Methodological Individualism: In the explanation of economic phenomena we have to go back to the actions (or inaction) of individuals; groups or "collectives" cannot act except through the actions of individual members........"
Methodological individualism is pretty much mocked by anyone who has studied social psychology, anthropology, or sociology. The notion that human beings are free floating choosers without the influences of their social environment doesn't bear scrutiny for very long at all! One of best critical summaries is Steven Lukes', "Methodological Individualism Reconsidered" in the The British Journal of Sociology Vol. 19, No. 2 (Jun., 1968), pp. 119-129.
/begin rant/ Personally I consider the whole free-market ideology particularly Adam Smith's notion of 'an invisible- hand', to be a pathetic, irresponsible, non-scientific delusion ! /end rant/
Adam Smith is actually a lot more sophisticated that what people give him credit for. His criticism of big business and especially land speculators is usually forgotten or deliberately ignored by those who try to emphasize his advocacy of market relations in consumer goods and task specialisation. The "invisible hand" only appears a few times in his works, but does serve as a useful metaphor how market relations can, in particular circumstances, generate high levels of utility for all participants. The circumstances (high market information, low barriers to entry, many buyers and sellers) must be in place in order for the invisible hand to actually work - otherwise it is a very visible iron fist. -- Lev Lafayette, BA (Hons), GradCertTerAdEd (Murdoch), GradCertPM, MBA (Tech Mngmnt) (Chifley) mobile: 0432 255 208 RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt
Lev Lafayette wrote:
...................snip ............snip
The "invisible hand" only appears a few times in his works, but does serve as a useful metaphor how market relations can, in particular circumstances, generate high levels of utility for all participants. The circumstances (high market information, low barriers to entry, many buyers and sellers) must be in place in order for the invisible hand to actually work - otherwise it is a very visible iron fist.
I was merely giving credit to Adam Smith for inventing the expression; not criticizing his particular usage. For me 'the invisible-hand ' is a metaphor for the very general notion that : ' some predictable, falsifiable, beneficial, social consequence, can be expected from an unregulated free-market'. What seems transparently obvious to me is not merely that 'beneficial, social consequence' is not capable of operational definition; but that an unregulated free-market has no predictable falsifiable consequence at all, not even a qualitative one.. Put another way, not only can 'market-failure' occur in an unregulated free-market; it is to be expected; because anything else is extremely improbable; regards Rohan McLeod
participants (5)
-
Lev Lafayette -
Pidgorny, Slav (GEUS) -
Rohan McLeod -
Russell Coker -
Trent W. Buck