Hi all Yes this is a lecture - deal with it. Some things need saying. When someone decides to unsub from a list, things tend to be well beyond problematic. It's not the time to argue with them over the validity of their move, or the semantics of what constitutes name calling and who did what. The atmosphere has gone sour and continuing to argue on whatever aspect of it merely indicates that you're not getting that point - which is possibly also the origin of the problem. Bianca Gibson is an awesome member of the open source community, and if she decides to make this moves you can be assured that various other less outspoken people have also disconnected (not don't go off checking the unsubs to nerd-argue with me, as that would again miss the point). Losing anyone from our community, particularly for these reasons, is a bad thing. It is very important we are inclusive and accepting as a group. If it's "just" luv-talk people unsub from rather than all of LUV, you may consider yourself lucky, and it'd be an opportunity for a second chance - show those people in the other lists and at live events that you're a sensible individual who positively contributes. Our community has people of many different skills and skill levels. Yes some of us spell better than others. You can offer suggestions and help, just don't bet a jerk about it. And in terms of politics... while overall we're probably more on the progressive end, there'll still be a wide range of viewpoints. Making sweeping statements about people in the context of a broader group tends to be fairly uncool as well as regarded as extremely unfair - so just don't do that. I think it's cool to discuss politics online, just remember that email and online communication lacks the instant feedback that tends to keep live chats within sensible boundaries - and politics are, particularly now, of course a hot topic. Everybody has very strong opinions, and that's not a bad thing. Even when you feel (or know!) you're right about something, if you tick off everybody in the group by you blatting them over the head with it, what's the use? If you tone it down a bit, you may have more and longer opportunity to interact with the people with whom you currently disagree - and perhaps, who knows, you might convince them later with your insights and thoughtful contributions. Stewart Smith and others have summarised these things very eloquently at talks: don't be a jerk. Cheers, Arjen. -- Exec.Director @ Open Query (http://openquery.com) MariaDB/MySQL services Sane business strategy explorations at http://upstarta.com.au Personal blog at http://lentz.com.au/blog/