On Mon, 19 May 2014 14:49:14 Arjen Lentz wrote:
Yes this is a lecture - deal with it. Some things need saying.
When someone decides to unsub from a list, things tend to be well beyond problematic. It's not the time to argue with them over the validity of their move, or the semantics of what constitutes name calling and who did what.
Who claimed that people shouldn't unsubscribe? I must have missed that. Was it in off-list discussion?
The atmosphere has gone sour and continuing to argue on whatever aspect of it merely indicates that you're not getting that point - which is possibly also the origin of the problem.
The idea that we should just stop the discussion when things "go sour" is wrong. Doing so means that people who want to promote homophobia, racism, misogyny, and joke about the Holocaust are free to do so because disagreeing with such people is always going to "go sour".
Losing anyone from our community, particularly for these reasons, is a bad thing. It is very important we are inclusive and accepting as a group. If it's "just" luv-talk people unsub from rather than all of LUV, you may consider yourself lucky, and it'd be an opportunity for a second chance - show those people in the other lists and at live events that you're a sensible individual who positively contributes.
There is no good option to be inclusive of people who want to exclude others. Here are the options for dealing with such situations: 1) Have a policy of quickly using moderation powers to stop people who attack minority groups. 2) Have a big argument with such people every time. 3) Have a de-facto policy of this list being only for straight white men because everyone who isn't will periodically face discrimination. The way things have worked in this list has varied between options 2 and 3.
Even when you feel (or know!) you're right about something, if you tick off everybody in the group by you blatting them over the head with it, what's the use? If you tone it down a bit, you may have more and longer opportunity to interact with the people with whom you currently disagree - and perhaps, who knows, you might convince them later with your insights and thoughtful contributions.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument Of course we get the tone argument. The Geek Feminism wiki has one of the better descriptions but it has a much wider scope. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/