Absolutely. There are two things I like about Open Borders, beyond the right to migrate freely. The first and most important is that it forces you to adopt a humanist global mindset rather than a parochial nationalistic open - we are literally all in this together. The second is that free and open migration isn't really that big of a problem as it's made out - almost all migration is economic, at least in the sense that it is expensive to move, let alone risky. Only a relatively small fraction of people who'd want to can actually afford to. Everyone else is stuck where they are... To my mind it's rather hypocritical for the west to simultaneously strip mine the resources of the rest of teh world and simultaneously complain that people want to migrate here... On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 18:10, Peter Ross <petrosssit@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Paul,
The idea that if you cannot help everyone you do not help at all?
It is not the case that Australia's borders get overrun by big numbers of refugees - it is not that easy, obviously.
However, I think it is right to say that we are perfectly capable of dealing with the number of refugees arriving at our door steps.
Our current refugee policy does distinguish by arrival by boat vs. arrival by plane.
Furthermore, Australia is one of the countries who have created the instability in the Middle East which have caused the refugee movements.
In contrast, my former home country has not been part of the military adventures but have dealt with many more refugees.
Angela Merkel's response 'Wir schaffen das" ("We can manage this") is a stark contrast to Australia's response.
The Australian response over the years is infuriating, not only in the area of refugee policies. It is a convenient "We are so small, We can't do anything. We cannot deal with refugees, we cannot do much about climate change, and we do not want to spend on foreign aid either."
Australians show the rest of the world that they are incapable - or simply do not want to take part in global efforts.
Regards Peter
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 12:25 PM Paul van den Bergen <paul.vandenbergen@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 12:07, Peter Ross via luv-talk <
luv-talk@luv.asn.au> wrote:
A bit of history:
A) When mandatory detention was introduced: "The Government is determined that a clear signal be sent that migration to Australia may not be achieved by simply arriving in this country and expecting to be allowed into the community ... this legislation is only intended to be an interim measure." (Immigration Minister Gerry Hand
under
Paul Keating 1993)?
B) Refugees throw children overboard to reach Australia (Minister for Defense Peter Reith under John Howard 2001)
C) "We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come" (PM John Howard 2001)
D) "onshore processing encourages people to jump into boats" (Houston report under Julia Gillard 2012) leading to re-opening of offshore processing at Nauru and Manus Island
E) "From now on, any asylum seeker who arrives in Australia by boat will have no chance of being settled in Australia as refugees." (PM Kevin Rudd 2013)
F) "I do not comment on on-waters matters" (Minister for Immigration Scott Morrison under Tony Abbott 2014)
G) It prevents people from drowning and saves lifes (PM Tony Abbott and Opposition Leader Bill Shorten 2015)
H) “The Australian Government has zero tolerance for people smuggling" (PM Scott Morrision 2019)
I) "Every individual senator has to make a decision: whether they stand on the side of stronger national security or weaker national security." (Senator Cormann under Scott Morrison 2019)
Both parties, supported by 75-80% of all Australian voters, having positions and acting in a way only supported by the Far-Right in Germany. the AfD, a party with close connections and leaders associated with fascism and neo-Nazism.
I am living in a land that implemented anti-refugees policies German fascists and neo-Nazis dream of.
Good to be here.. Peter
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 9:56 AM Paul van den Bergen via luv-talk <luv-talk@luv.asn.au> wrote:
Hey Folks,
My take on a lot of this is that Australia has one of the most
representative electoral systems in the world (states not withstanding)... Consequently when we elect a bunch of moralizing faux-christian fascists, it's because that's what we really want...
In other words, it's not just about who is in power, it's about the
sort of society we want to live in... I despair for our children...
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 00:33, Andrew McGlashan via luv-talk <
luv-talk@luv.asn.au> wrote:
Hi,
On 5/12/19 12:16 am, Jason White via luv-talk wrote:
I've been living overseas in recent years for work reasons, so
perhaps I shouldn't comment. However, I don't recall that the Australian Labor Party was particularly progressive regarding the rights of refugees - at least when I was last paying attention. Didn't they favour mandatory detention policies, and the exclusion of off-shore detention facilities from the migration zone?
If that's the case, then the issue lies with both sides of
mainstream Australian politics, making it more complicated than the question of how far to the right the current government is. So far as I can remember, the Australian Greens have been consistently supportive of upholding the human rights of refugees.
Others are welcome to correct me if any of the above are false
impressions, of course.
Labor has rolled over on many things; expecting to form government to fix some of them.
Labor had, in Hawke's time, more compassion for the people and their own very fair "green" agenda before the Greens party even existed -- there was no need for the Greens back then.
In any case, Labor is far too close to LNP in many issues, but you can't win elections (generally), if you keep wanting to take monies out of people's pockets, especially in this depressed economy. It's more give me, give me, give me and "what's in it for me" ... AU people have to look after themselves and do what they can to support causes they believe in if they have enough funds to do so after huge rises in cost of living here.
I'm pretty sure one of Keating's last policies helped get him booted, he wanted to increase the government take on capital gains -- sound familiar? Taking ANY monies from the people is a recipe for disaster in this greedy country that can see no further than the value of their dollars.
Of the two major parties, I believe Labor is far ahead of LNP, but they don't present well and there are too many supporters of LNP with very strong voices and loads of money for the cause.
Yeah, we are stuffed and two rights (LNP and Labor), doesn't make it "right", it just makes it sad.
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