Re: [luv-main] Bought a laptop with optimus, doesn't work (nice false advertising nvidia). Now wanting to murder nvidia via Open Letter.
On 12/09/11 18:56, Luke Martinez wrote:
Should I look at all release notes for drivers for every bit of hardware, expecting someone to do that is ridiculous. I did a bit of research on my card 555GTM + linux, i had linux drivers etc. Any sane person would expect it to work.
Indeed, any sane person would *expect* it to work, but then, sane people probably go out and buy machines with OSX or Windows pre-installed. This is why I don't try and persuade friends, family or even random strangers to use Linux on their desktops any more. There's always something that doesn't quite work. Ubuntu have gone a long way towards trying to integrate the work of third-party binary drivers into a system which normal users can cope with, but stuff is still miles away from being reliably usable on 99% of modern systems :(
On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 06:13:02PM +1000, Toby Corkindale wrote:
Indeed, any sane person would *expect* it to work, but then, sane people probably go out and buy machines with OSX or Windows pre-installed.
dunno about sane. ignorant, or uninformed, perhaps.
This is why I don't try and persuade friends, family or even random strangers to use Linux on their desktops any more. There's always
i still tell people to use linux for security-sensitive stuff like internet banking if they run windows. has to be dual-boot. a linux VM isn't good enough. any keystroke-logger running in the host OS can still capture your login and password details.
something that doesn't quite work. Ubuntu have gone a long way towards trying to integrate the work of third-party binary drivers into a system which normal users can cope with, but stuff is still miles away from being reliably usable on 99% of modern systems :(
you exaggerate. if you mostly want to run MS Windows programs (like games), then it's a PITA. most programs work OK in wine (sometimes even better than they do in real windows) but there's too much stuffing around for it to be a viable option for non-technical users. if all you want to do is basic office type apps (wp, ssheet, etc) and web browsing on pretty nearly *ANY* desktop PC, then a linux based system Just Plain Works. And does so *many* times better, with far less stuffing around and PITA geekery (i.e. sysadmin type stuff that ordinary users shouldn't have to fuck around with) than Windows would on the same hardware. Installing and upgrading software on linux is easier (and safer) than on Windows. pretty nearly any app you might need to run is available in your distro's repository, so you don't have to go hunting for it (and risk being conned by some malware site into installing their bogus app). There's a consistent method and user-interface for all apps - whether you like command line with apt-get or aptitude or GUI with synaptic or whatever; you can bulk-install a whole bunch of related apps and addons at once rather than have to tediously sit there and download each program and run it's own individual installer. and if/when you upgrade your hardware the system will keep on working without accusing you of criminal acts or refusing to run just because you've changed "too much" on your system at once. support for laptop-specific stuff (graphics switching, etc) on linux is still problematic. If you choose your laptop carefully, it works great. But if you just buy one without researching it thoroughly, you'll probably be disappointed. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au> BOFH excuse #439: Hot Java has gone cold
On 14/09/11 14:45, Craig Sanders wrote: [snip]
something that doesn't quite work. Ubuntu have gone a long way towards trying to integrate the work of third-party binary drivers into a system which normal users can cope with, but stuff is still miles away from being reliably usable on 99% of modern systems :(
you exaggerate.
if you mostly want to run MS Windows programs (like games), then it's a PITA. most programs work OK in wine (sometimes even better than they do in real windows) but there's too much stuffing around for it to be a viable option for non-technical users.
if all you want to do is basic office type apps (wp, ssheet, etc) and web browsing on pretty nearly *ANY* desktop PC, then a linux based system Just Plain Works. And does so *many* times better, with far less stuffing around and PITA geekery (i.e. sysadmin type stuff that ordinary users shouldn't have to fuck around with) than Windows would on the same hardware.
support for laptop-specific stuff (graphics switching, etc) on linux is still problematic. If you choose your laptop carefully, it works great. But if you just buy one without researching it thoroughly, you'll probably be disappointed.
Most people I know who aren't serious techies just have laptops. I have gone through quite a lot of laptops too. NONE of them have managed to work out-of-the-box properly with Linux. Usual suspects are the wifi or suspend not working, but if it's not that, it's something else like sound or accelerated video. Seriously, I've suggested people try Ubuntu out, and they're technical enough to make a bootable USB stick or CDROM and boot off it.. but once they boot up and have no network access, they're stuck. You can't download drivers or search on forums, and this particular market segment doesn't have secondary PCs to use. Likewise, they're not people who went out to buy a laptop specifically for Linux - they just bought something to use, and later thought they'd give this Linux thing a whirl.. And then they inevitably receive a document that doesn't open properly in Abiword, I mean OpenOffice, I mean LibreOffice. And bi-directional audio in Skype doesn't work. And flash runs like a dog. And they can't get their iPod to sync with whichever MP3 suite is being shipped with the distro today. I'm not saying it's not possible to get all these things to work eventually, with some compromises -- but it's ridiculous to expect regular people to jump through the hoops to do so, when their system already comes with a working Windows or OSX install. -T PS. Please don't get me wrong - I think all the projects mentioned above are doing well. I'm just saying that we're still not there yet for getting random people to use it -- unless you happen to like becoming their on-call support person for the rest of your life :)
On 14/09/11 14:45, Craig Sanders wrote:
support for laptop-specific stuff (graphics switching, etc) on linux is still problematic. If you choose your laptop carefully, it works great. But if you just buy one without researching it thoroughly, you'll probably be disappointed.
Most people I know who aren't serious techies just have laptops. I have gone through quite a lot of laptops too. NONE of them have managed to work out-of-the-box properly with Linux. Usual suspects are the wifi or suspend not working, but if it's not that, it's something else like sound or accelerated video.
The second-hand market is great for Linux use. Unless you want something exceptionally fast and shiny and new, a 3 year old laptop will probably work just great with some more memory and maybe a new battery. I was recently gifted an old HP nx7010 (which is maybe a little older than 3 years) and Ubuntu "just worked" with the exception of tv out which required a tiny bit of fiddling. Wireless, graphics, touch pad, all good. When doing repairs on laptops I often boot off a Linux USB stick to test things and haven't had problems except for some very new models, although a USB recovery stick hardly equates to production use - I'm guessing if I wanted accelerated graphics I might have more trouble with the newer stuff. James
On 14/09/11 15:19, James Harper wrote:
On 14/09/11 14:45, Craig Sanders wrote:
support for laptop-specific stuff (graphics switching, etc) on linux is still problematic. If you choose your laptop carefully, it works great. But if you just buy one without researching it thoroughly, you'll probably be disappointed.
Most people I know who aren't serious techies just have laptops. I have gone through quite a lot of laptops too. NONE of them have managed to work out-of-the-box properly with Linux. Usual suspects are the wifi or suspend not working, but if it's not that, it's something else like sound or accelerated video.
The second-hand market is great for Linux use. Unless you want something exceptionally fast and shiny and new, a 3 year old laptop will probably work just great with some more memory and maybe a new battery. I was recently gifted an old HP nx7010 (which is maybe a little older than 3 years) and Ubuntu "just worked" with the exception of tv out which required a tiny bit of fiddling. Wireless, graphics, touch pad, all good. When doing repairs on laptops I often boot off a Linux USB stick to test things and haven't had problems except for some very new models, although a USB recovery stick hardly equates to production use - I'm guessing if I wanted accelerated graphics I might have more trouble with the newer stuff.
I think you've lost track of what I was replying to.. The point was about getting non-techy people using Linux. ie. People who buy new laptops, and aren't interested in "a tiny bit of fiddling" as you put it. I do totally agree, the used market is good for Linux-compatible laptops - if for no other reason than because hardware support does eventually end up in Linux, it just takes a year or two. Toby
Quoting "Toby Corkindale" <toby.corkindale@strategicdata.com.au>:
Most people I know who aren't serious techies just have laptops. I have gone through quite a lot of laptops too. NONE of them have managed to work out-of-the-box properly with Linux. Usual suspects are the wifi or suspend not working, but if it's not that, it's something else like sound or accelerated video.
Most of the people seem to be surprisingly content with the fact that their (Windows) system just crashed and needs a fresh install. Viruses are "normal", and if performance sucks, a re-install may help too. Well, with Linux I avoided that since 1993. And Windows 8 may even get an app store;-) Here in the company every Windows computer wants separate updates for MS (OS+Office), Firefox, Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader, Java.. compare that with the central Update Manager. With MS I just get other annoyances but it is not really "just working" as you suggest. I have to defend myself regularly against "Can you help me to rescue my Windows?" (standard answer: "I do not use daily it since early 90ies so I don't know how it works";-) Regards Peter
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011, Craig Sanders <cas@taz.net.au> wrote:
i still tell people to use linux for security-sensitive stuff like internet banking if they run windows.
has to be dual-boot. a linux VM isn't good enough. any keystroke-logger running in the host OS can still capture your login and password details.
They could just use a separate computer. A separate laptop doesn't take much space, allows someone to do banking while someone else is playing games, and costs almost nothing (old laptops are really cheap).
support for laptop-specific stuff (graphics switching, etc) on linux is still problematic. If you choose your laptop carefully, it works great. But if you just buy one without researching it thoroughly, you'll probably be disappointed.
I was under the impression that the dual video card monstrosities could work with just Intel drivers. Unless you want 3D gaming (which laptops won't do particularly well no matter what happens) there's not much benefit in using anything other than Intel video hardware. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
participants (5)
-
Craig Sanders -
James Harper -
Peter Ross -
Russell Coker -
Toby Corkindale