On 05.03.12 18:29, Jason White wrote:

Have you lodged a support request about this? Internode have always been responsive and helpful whenever I've had an issue (mostly ADSL line problems that turned out to be the responsibility of Telstra).

I'd be happier about doing that once I had a clue what the problem might be. Just waving my arms and saying "It's sporadically like glue, often for hours on end." seems too vague to be likely to lead to a fix. Hold on ... I must admit that it was last when it was very wet that this sort of thing happened. Water in the line pits was the cause, ISTR now that those grey cells get a kick. Your traceroute seems to have lots of those quarter second latencies too, and shows no sign of actually reaching 69.163.248.64 either. So, if your speeds are OK, my traceroute isn't anything to go on.

Here's my traceroute for comparison. The "router" is actually my Linux host, with a Traverse Technologies ADSL 2+ PCI card in it. I am not experiencing any connectivity issues or any reduced speeds.

I have some code to hack this evening, so might give Internode a call tomorrow. Thanks for the encouragement. Erik -- In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find." - Terry Pratchett

Hi, On 5 March 2012 19:05, Craig Sanders <cas@taz.net.au> wrote:

...

...

In firefox, I have network.dns.disableIPv6 = "user set boolean true", but that's more for slow "Looking up ..."

just disable ipv6 at the host level if you're not using it. ...

When you get your line problems sorted out, have a look at configuring your ADSL router to enable IPv6. All the routers Internode sell support IPv6. As an Internode subscriber, you are better placed than most to actually *use* IPv6. In particular, Google and YouTube are popular sources of IPv6 traffic, and much more will be available after 6th June -- http://www.worldipv6launch.org/ The big win with IPv6 is billions of times more IP addresses. Internode subscribers get given 256 subnets of 2^64 IPv6 addresses. You don't need to play port forwarding games if you want to e.g. have more than one Web or ssh server at home. John

On 05.03.12 19:05, Craig Sanders wrote:

1. run a local resolving name-server - bind9 or dnsmasq or something.

this makes a *huge* difference.

Now that looks like advice to follow, even if I have to resort to the O'Reilly DNS book which I haven't opened in a decade or more. ...

if you use your adsl modem to manage your connection (rather than have linux control the modem in dumb bridged mode), then it may already run a dns cache,

I think it does, because when DNS stops working, rebooting the sucker fixes it.

and it probably does dhcp too so is probably already telling the dhcp clients to use it. note, however, that there are advantages to running a nameserver on a decent linux machine (or even an ancient pentium class linux gateway box) compared to a tiny little modem-class CPU with bugger-all memory.

When it works, it's good enough, and I don't have to maintain it. There's a lot to be said for the latter when you're on a bush block, cutting half an acre of grass with a brushcutter, because a lawnmower would have to be winched up and down the steeper slopes.

2. run a local web proxy (e.g. squid or apache/nginx/whatever in proxying mode) to cache images, scripts, etc from frequently visited sites.

just as with DNS, having a local cache of recurring elements like images on a page from a local cache can massively improve the responsiveness of web sites.

Now you're talking turkey. I'll have a go at that. (Have done DNS before, but not squid.)

make sure all host(s) on your LAN are configured to use them. If you run your own DHCP server, setting the name-server IP for dhcp clients is easy.

For web proxy, you can either manually configure each client/web browser to use your proxy, or use some iptables prerouting REDIRECT rules on your router/gateway box for transparent proxying (transproxying is only evil if your ISP does it to you, not if you do it to yourself :)

I'll probably keep it simple, at least to begin with, since that's easier if it doesn't work immediately. Thanks a lot Craig, for the detailed advice, all of it very helpful. Erik -- We only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn't want to meet. - Stephen Hawking

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Erik Christiansen wrote:

On 05.03.12 19:05, Craig Sanders wrote:

...

1. run a local resolving name-server - bind9 or dnsmasq or something.

this makes a *huge* difference.

Now that looks like advice to follow, even if I have to resort to the O'Reilly DNS book which I haven't opened in a decade or more. ...

Under a susgestion from I think Russel Coker I use pdnsd. This only required minor (Note 1) editing of the config file to get it working. I was most impressed with the improvement in loading times.

...

2. run a local web proxy (e.g. squid or apache/nginx/whatever in proxying mode) to cache images, scripts, etc from frequently visited sites.

just as with DNS, having a local cache of recurring elements like images on a page from a local cache can massively improve the responsiveness of web sites.

Now you're talking turkey. I'll have a go at that. (Have done DNS before, but not squid.)

I'll probably keep it simple, at least to begin with, since that's easier if it doesn't work immediately.

Thanks a lot Craig, for the detailed advice, all of it very helpful.

Erik

I have thought of setting up something like spuid for a long time but I do not do much general browsing considering outside of Linux and a number of mostly text based railway sites the majority of the internet to be a major waste of time. Note 1: I have been using Linux since 1993 so my deffinition of minor may not be some one elses. Lindsay

Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:

What really would be wanted is a recursive nameserver running locally.

http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Network_Other/dns-servers.html#deadwood http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Network_Other/dns-servers.html#unbound http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Network_Other/dns-servers.html#pdns-recursor

BIND9 can also be run to provide recursive service only (by just not setting up any authoritative service zones), but is pretty slow and bloated.

I'm using it both as an authoritative nameserver for my zones and as recursive for everything else. I also forward google.com queries to appropriate name servers so I can get Google over IPv6. I hope this won't be necessary after June, since they are supposed to make their AAAA records available to the world at large at that point.

On 05.03.12 19:10, Allan Duncan wrote:

On 05/03/12 18:01, Erik Christiansen wrote:

...

The link looks more than OK: ... US Margin 27 DS Margin 21 Trained Modulation T1413 LOS Errors 0 DS Line Attenuation 54 US Line Attenuation 31 ...

Lousy attenuations. s/n consistent with 1.5Mb/s rates.

Which exchange are you on?

Belgrave, I believe, since I'm in Tecoma. Down our winding forest roads, that's a good bit further than the cocky flies - about 5 km by car. The margin of 27 dB is heaps, I'd hazard to guess, unless it's silently dropping the bitrate to maintain that "LOS Errors 0". I admit I haven't seen a BER reported, as we used to do on our PCM trunk equipment, back in the days of yore.

I have a daughter on Moreland and she is also having poor performance. Internode "converted" all the 1.5Mb/s ADSL-1 over to unthrottled some months ago, and the soeeds should have gone up to 8Mb/s (max). I now get around 7, with a downstream noise margin of 6.3 dB. My daughter gets 1.5, unchanged, but hasn't chased it up. It isn't the modem - I took a spare one I had checked on my line and it also ran at 1.5Mb/s. She has much better attenuation than I do.

Is she also miles out from the exchange? The frequency response of the cable is far from flat, so high frequency attenuation suffers more rapidly from long lines, keeping us at lower speeds. Erik -- "Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." -Wernher Von Braun

On 05.03.12 22:30, Allan Duncan wrote:

Under 2K. The modem reports margins that are what you should see. I suspect it is the DSLAM.

Since both line attenuation and receiver margin are reported, one should be able to compare transmitter(DSLAM)/receiver pairs directly. If we either (in highly cavalier fashion) assume that the modem receivers are fairly similar, or you try your modem on your daughter's line, the remaining variable is the DSLAM send level. The latter could form a basis for grumping to the provider. Erik -- Sometimes you have to outsmart this stuff, it works for Murphy you know. - Gene Heskett, on emc-users ML, on PE swelling when tapping a thread.

On 05.03.12 22:46, Rohan McLeod wrote:

If it's of interest I have an NBN / iPrimus fibre connection in Brunswick; for $43/month bundled with a $27 VOIP phone account; I get 5GB peak and 10GB off-peak at 25Mbps down and 5Mbps up; mostly speedtest seems to indicate I'm getting about 22Mbps down, with actual downloads anywhere from 12Mbps - 22Mbps; dropping to back to 120Kbps beyond the 5Gb cap.; price is not brilliant; but I don't have to worry about rain !

Well, since I'm paying just 7% less than that for my soggy (not always) 1.5 Mb/s, the internet price looks just fine. I'll have to compare my phone bill. If the NBN makes it to the outer suburbs, that's not looking too scruffy, unless they start charging more for stringing it a bit further between houses. Erik -- My 4 year old niece offered a helpful suggestion while I was in the middle of resolving a LAN routing problem: "Turn it off and turn it on, Uncle Jack; that always works for me." - Jack Ganssle

Erik Christiansen wrote:

On 05.03.12 22:46, Rohan McLeod wrote:

...

If it's of interest I have an NBN / iPrimus fibre connection in Brunswick; for $43/month bundled with a $27 VOIP phone account; I get 5GB peak and 10GB off-peak at 25Mbps down and 5Mbps up; mostly speedtest seems to indicate I'm getting about 22Mbps down, with actual downloads anywhere from 12Mbps - 22Mbps; dropping to back to 120Kbps beyond the 5Gb cap.; price is not brilliant; but I don't have to worry about rain ! Well, since I'm paying just 7% less than that for my soggy (not always) 1.5 Mb/s, the internet price looks just fine. I'll have to compare my phone bill. If the NBN makes it to the outer suburbs, that's not looking too scruffy, unless they start charging more for stringing it a bit further between houses. Perhaps it will be faster by then. "http://broadbandguide.com.au/blogs/2011/05/26tbps-record-speed-proves-nbn-fi..." ;

regards Rohan McLeod

Hi, One other thing to consider with DSL (just like dialup), the connection that the modem syncs at can vary plenty and sometimes it is worth resetting the connection to get higher line sync. If you have speed issues, then the first thing to do is to check your actual line sync figures and take it from there. Cheers -- Kind Regards AndrewM Andrew McGlashan Broadband Solutions now including VoIP Current Land Line No: 03 9012 2102 Mobile: 04 2574 1827 Fax: 03 9012 2178 National No: 1300 85 3804 Affinity Vision Australia Pty Ltd http://www.affinityvision.com.au http://adsl2choice.net.au In Case of Emergency -- http://www.affinityvision.com.au/ice.html

On 6/03/2012 10:36 AM, Toby Corkindale wrote:

On 06/03/12 03:27, Andrew McGlashan wrote:

...

Here is an order link using my agent code.... I sure wish I was in Brunswick, I have to suffer on rainy days too with my cable length at almost 4km and very high attenuation :(

I *am* in Brunswick, but still have to put up with a very long run to the Moreland exchange and terrible performance on ADSL2+. (4-5 MBit.. last place I lived I actually saw>20, hence disappointment with 4. On the other hand, it wasn't so many years ago that I thought an unlimited 2MB line was the best thing since sliced bread, so I try not to complain too much)

Not all of Brunswick fell inside the NBN test zone, sadly :(

You might be lucky "soon" .... http://www.theage.com.au/business/three-melbourne-suburbs-to-get-nbn-2012021... <quote> NBN Co has already installed fibre-optics in a small patch of Brunswick and will expand the roll out to the rest of the suburb. Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/business/three-melbourne-suburbs-to-get-nbn-2012021... </quote> Cheers -- Kind Regards AndrewM Andrew McGlashan Broadband Solutions now including VoIP Current Land Line No: 03 9012 2102 Mobile: 04 2574 1827 Fax: 03 9012 2178 National No: 1300 85 3804 Affinity Vision Australia Pty Ltd http://www.affinityvision.com.au http://adsl2choice.net.au In Case of Emergency -- http://www.affinityvision.com.au/ice.html

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 10:31:05AM +1100, Toby Corkindale wrote:

Last time I looked at the map of where they were going next, it didn't get as far as my place for another few years.. stops a few streets away :(

who cares about Brunswick, anyway? :-p i want NBN in Coburg.

(I'm in an unfashionable NW corner of the suburb)

near Melville Rd? might be "unfashionable" but i like that area. used to live over that way years ago (but in Coburg, nr cnr of Bell St & Melville Rd). Now i'm over on the other side of Coburg near Merri Creek. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>

On 08/03/12 11:13, Toby Corkindale wrote:

You and everyone else techy in Coburg will too! *sigh* Why does it take soooo loooong to roll it out? I don't want to wait several more years! (And then I'm worried that I'll have to try and convince the other couple of guys in the strata owners corporation that they can chip in to get driveway dug up and the fibre actually laid to our doors. I bet that won't come cheaply :/

*Free* isn't cheap enough for you? (Of course it's only free if its put in while the suburb is being rolled out) I wouldn't complain too much, I now live in the shadow of the most connected building in the country (Global Switch in Sydney) and get ~5Mb ADSL despite being almost as inner-city as you can get outside the CBD itself.

On 09/03/12 00:31, Hiddensoul (Mark Clohesy) wrote:

I am in government housing but I am assuming that as Internet is an essential service that they cant stop me having the NBN connection put

Sadly it's not yet.

in once it gets here.. But what I don't tell them wont hurt them, like the 25 foot tower I am installing for my HAM radio antennas. The lease just says I cant attach antennas to the barge boards, and the tower is free standing bolted to a concrete slab so no barge board attachment in sight...

Assuming you're in a fibre area (you may well not be, even fairly metro parts of Melbourne actually aren't, better maps are out now) where it matters it shouldn’t be any different then getting a new phone line or cable TV, and, given that both copper lines and the Foxtel HFC network (can't remember about Optus') are to be turned off in favour of NBN there should be no sane reason not to.

On Thu, Mar 08, 2012 at 11:13:11AM +1100, Toby Corkindale wrote:

Sometimes I wonder if I'd have been better off buying somewhere bigger in Coburg (for the same money)..

FYI, I saw this on whirlpool yesterday: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1547651&p=34#r663 "The new coverage map on the NBNCo site includes some extra detail on Brunswick if you zoom in and click the "1" sitting over the first release site. "Brunswick, Brunswick East, Brunswick West, Carlton North, Parkville, Princes Hill Fibre | Work to commence within one year - we will commence work from Feb 2012 in phases with last work scheduled to commence in Jun 2012*."" Still no mention of Coburg. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au> BOFH excuse #154: You can tune a file system, but you can't tune a fish (from most tunefs man pages)

On 09/03/12 10:11, Brett Pemberton wrote:

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Craig Sanders <cas@taz.net.au <mailto:cas@taz.net.au>> wrote:

On Thu, Mar 08, 2012 at 11:13:11AM +1100, Toby Corkindale wrote: > Sometimes I wonder if I'd have been better off buying somewhere bigger > in Coburg (for the same money)..

FYI, I saw this on whirlpool yesterday:

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1547651&p=34#r663 <http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1547651&p=34#r663>

"The new coverage map on the NBNCo site includes some extra detail on Brunswick if you zoom in and click the "1" sitting over the first release site.

"Brunswick, Brunswick East, Brunswick West, Carlton North, Parkville, Princes Hill Fibre | Work to commence within one year - we will commence work from Feb 2012 in phases with last work scheduled to commence in Jun 2012*.""

Still no mention of Coburg.

Or anything Linux related. Can topics such as this please be moved to luv-talk.

It really isn't relevant.

This has cropped up before. luv-talk can become a cesspool at times, and those of us interested in tech stuff, but not arguments about rape, religion, and so forth, may not wish to take part in that list. A luv-tech list was proposed a while back, but I don't think it went anywhere. Fair enough, I guess, since after all, it's only vaguely related to Linux. So, I've created one. You can subscribe here, I think, or there's probably some way to do it by sending a subscribe message to luv-tech@googlegroups.com https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/luv-tech Cheers, Toby

On 13/03/12 15:23, lev@levlafayette.com wrote:

Dear Toby,

...

A luv-tech list was proposed a while back, but I don't think it went anywhere. Fair enough, I guess, since after all, it's only vaguely related to Linux.

We discussed this at the committee level and rejected the proposal. It was deemed that luv-talks exists for non-Linux technical discussions.

...

So, I've created one.

It is not really appropriate to create a luv-tech mailing list without the approval of the committee of management of the legally constituted incorporated association.

Please consider this a formal request to delete that list.

I'm not claiming the list is an official product of the association, and am happy to put a disclaimer as such on the group description to avoid confusion.* Would you still take issue with that approach? I don't want to cause grief with the committee, but since there's a slight demand for the list and the committee has already refused their option to create it, I figure it can't hurt to run an independent one. -Toby * Description could be changed to: luv-tech ======== Do you love chatting about technology? Join luv-tech. We're mainly Linux users based in Victoria, but anyone is welcome to join. Please note: This list is not affiliated with Linux Users of Victoria, Inc.

On 13/03/12 16:19, lev@levlafayette.com wrote:

...

On 13/03/12 15:23, lev@levlafayette.com wrote:

I'm not claiming the list is an official product of the association, and am happy to put a disclaimer as such on the group description to avoid confusion.*

Could you please change the description then? Currently it reads:

"Welcome to LUV-tech, the mailing list for Linux Users of Victoria members who want to talk about (non-linux) technology matters."

This certainly would be considered a mailing list of Linux Users of Victoria with the current description.

I provided a suggested alternative in my previous email, which you have snipped from this email. Are you saying you are happy with that alternative? I'll switch over to it now. I'm glad we could come to an agreement. -Toby

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Toby Corkindale <toby.corkindale@strategicdata.com.au> wrote:

Would you still take issue with that approach? I don't want to cause grief with the committee, but since there's a slight demand for the list and the committee has already refused their option to create it, I figure it can't hurt to run an independent one.

Google Groups tends to force Gmail accounts on users which is a good incentive to not use any lists based on that service. That combined with the small demand makes it likely that you won't get a critical mass of subscribers unles something goes wrong with the main LUV lists. It seems that a better option would be to get luv-talk adjusted to better suit your desires. But given that we expelled one member due to racism on luv- talk, a religious extremist went quiet, and one guy who had been anti-social started doing so on luv-main instead it doesn't seem like you will get much unwanted discussion on luv-talk that doesn't happen on luv-main. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/

Quoting Russell Coker (russell@coker.com.au):

Google Groups tends to force Gmail accounts on users which is a good incentive to not use any lists based on that service.

Instructions about how to join a Google Group with a non-Gmail subscription address are linked from here: 'Google Groups' on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Mail . It's disappointing that Google makes that knowledge difficult to come across. Many people mistakenly believe such forums work only from GMail, such that I'm the only non-GMail subscriber on several. The above doc removes one reason to dislike Google Groups, leaving only all the others. ;->

Quoting Anthony Shipman (als@iinet.net.au):

That's strange because I just went and subscribed with my iinet e-mail address.

I'm unclear on what the 'strange' part is, and wonder if you perhaps might have fundamentally misunderstood what I said upthread. Anyhow, the link at my knowledgebase (and I now have two, one for the Web method, one for the e-mail-only one) aims to help people by supplying the documentation missing from Google itself about how to subscribe from non-GMail subscription addresses. Yr. welcome. -- Rick Moen "Names of fictional places are capitalized: rick@linuxmafia.com Narnia, Oz, San Francisco, etc." McQ! (4x80) -- FakeAPStylebook

Quoting Anthony Shipman (als@iinet.net.au):

I didn't read any documentation. I just clicked the Join button and filled in the blanks. Perhaps they've changed something more recently.

Interesting. Could be.

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Toby Corkindale < toby.corkindale@strategicdata.com.au> wrote:

On 13/03/12 19:02, Anthony Shipman wrote:

...

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 06:51:44 pm Rick Moen wrote:

...

Quoting Anthony Shipman (als@iinet.net.au):

...

That's strange because I just went and subscribed with my iinet e-mail address.

I'm unclear on what the 'strange' part is, and wonder if you perhaps might have fundamentally misunderstood what I said upthread.

Anyhow, the link at my knowledgebase (and I now have two, one for the Web method, one for the e-mail-only one) aims to help people by supplying the documentation missing from Google itself about how to subscribe from non-GMail subscription addresses. Yr. welcome.

I didn't read any documentation. I just clicked the Join button and filled in the blanks. Perhaps they've changed something more recently.

I've subscribed non-gmail addresses to google groups, even years ago. It's been fine.

I do note that when you create a list, you could choose to disallow regular email subscriptions, which then makes people jump through hoops to join.. but it wasn't selected by default, and I don't know what sort of list admin would turn that on..

Guys, This discussion has turned remarkably non-linux based. Can I please ask it to be moved to luv-talk, or *gasp* luv-tech? thanks, / Brett

Quoting "Rick Moen" <rick@linuxmafia.com>:

...

It's disappointing that Google makes that knowledge difficult to come across. Many people mistakenly believe such forums work only from GMail, such that I'm the only non-GMail subscriber on several.

I subscribed to a Symfony (PHP) mailing list and it frequently ate my e-mail. Straight to /dev/null so it seems.

Did this happen days ago, weeks ago, months ago, or years ago? It sounds like things have changed recently... James

On 14/03/12 09:05, Peter Ross wrote:

Quoting "Rick Moen"<rick@linuxmafia.com>:

...

It's disappointing that Google makes that knowledge difficult to come across. Many people mistakenly believe such forums work only from GMail, such that I'm the only non-GMail subscriber on several.

I subscribed to a Symfony (PHP) mailing list and it frequently ate my e-mail. Straight to /dev/null so it seems.

It isn't reliable. I am not interested in debugging Google problems so I don't know the reasons. I gave up on it.

I'm on lots of groups, via both gmail and non-gmail addresses, and I've found them all to be quite reliable. Maybe your email provider is being mistakenly flagged as a spam source? Maybe your mailing list is moderated and the moderator is fallible? -T

Rick Moen wrote:

...

Google Groups tends to force Gmail accounts on users which is a good incentive to not use any lists based on that service.

Instructions about how to join a Google Group with a non-Gmail subscription address are linked from here: 'Google Groups' on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Mail

gmane.org probably works, too, for those of us that remember how to configure newsreaders.

On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, Andrew McGlashan wrote:

On 5/03/2012 10:46 PM, Rohan McLeod wrote:

...

t's of interest I have an NBN / iPrimus fibre connection in Brunswick; for $43/month bundled with a $27 VOIP phone

...

If it's of interest I have an NBN / iPrimus fibre connection in Brunswick; for $43/month bundled with a $27 VOIP phone account; I get 5GB peak and 10GB off-peak at 25Mbps down and 5Mbps up; mostly speedtest seems to indicate I'm getting about 22Mbps down, with actual downloads anywhere from 12Mbps - 22Mbps; dropping to back to 120Kbps beyond the 5Gb cap.; price is not brilliant; but I don't have to worry about rain !

Ouch, you can get a 100/40 account from Exetel with a static IP for $70 with 300G download (uploads NOT counted). Shaping is not near as vicious either.

You realise that you've just listed something almost twice as expensive as what he's using, right? Sometimes people don't need all that data. Say, if they're not using bittorrent. Then it's ok to go by price if they get the service they want. (I was just looking at smart phone prepaid plans. None are suitable for me. I want to pay less than $20 per month, which I can do with a non smartphone by virtue of having some credit that can last 365 days, as long as I don't use it. Which I don't. Very few providers seem to realise that not everyone wants to talk and text on their phone all day every day. Sometimes we only want something for emergencies because we're unsociable bastards). -- Tim Connors

On 23/03/2012 11:19 AM, Tim Connors wrote:

On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, Andrew McGlashan wrote:

...

On 5/03/2012 10:46 PM, Rohan McLeod wrote:

...

t's of interest I have an NBN / iPrimus fibre connection in Brunswick; for $43/month bundled with a $27 VOIP phone

...

If it's of interest I have an NBN / iPrimus fibre connection in Brunswick; for $43/month bundled with a $27 VOIP phone account; I get 5GB peak and 10GB off-peak at 25Mbps down and 5Mbps up; mostly speedtest seems to indicate I'm getting about 22Mbps down, with actual downloads anywhere from 12Mbps - 22Mbps; dropping to back to 120Kbps beyond the 5Gb cap.; price is not brilliant; but I don't have to worry about rain !

Ouch, you can get a 100/40 account from Exetel with a static IP for $70 with 300G download (uploads NOT counted). Shaping is not near as vicious either.

You realise that you've just listed something almost twice as expensive as what he's using, right? Sometimes people don't need all that data. Say, if they're not using bittorrent. Then it's ok to go by price if they get the service they want.

No, he is paying $43 plus $27 -- so $70 total now. Sure, that includes calls and a VoIP service. The $70 doesn't include VoIP or calls, but for $5 more he can add them and only pay for the calls he makes at a low rate or even free if VoIP to VoIP (with the right setup). Of course, there are cheaper options, but this is great value as it is.

(I was just looking at smart phone prepaid plans. None are suitable for me. I want to pay less than $20 per month, which I can do with a non smartphone by virtue of having some credit that can last 365 days, as long as I don't use it. Which I don't. Very few providers seem to realise that not everyone wants to talk and text on their phone all day every day. Sometimes we only want something for emergencies because we're unsociable bastards).

Sure, I can understand that ;) Cheers -- Kind Regards AndrewM