On Sun, 2013-01-13 at 15:44 +1100, Tony Langdon wrote:
It's probably innovative little ISPs like that who are going to be more likely to deploy IPv6 at first.
Yep, another small ISP I've heard of, Smelly Black Dog, offers native IPv6 on their ADSL services. Looks like they only offer a /64 but that should get you by. (At the moment where I work, I'm doing dynamic /56's, and will do static /56's once I teach our customer database to speak IPv6.)
At 03:51 PM 1/13/2013, Jeremy Visser wrote:
On Sun, 2013-01-13 at 15:44 +1100, Tony Langdon wrote:
It's probably innovative little ISPs like that who are going to be more likely to deploy IPv6 at first.
Yep, another small ISP I've heard of, Smelly Black Dog, offers native IPv6 on their ADSL services. Looks like they only offer a /64 but that should get you by.
A /64 should do most home networks.
(At the moment where I work, I'm doing dynamic /56's, and will do static /56's once I teach our customer database to speak IPv6.)
Cool. :) 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
Tony Langdon <vk3jed@gmail.com> wrote:
A /64 should do most home networks.
It should indeed. However, if you're using neighbour discovery (e.g., radvd in Linux) to deliver addresses to hosts, my understanding is that you need to use a /64 due to the way in which the host address is calculated - usually from the MAC address. Consequently, it's hard to make subnets with only a /64. Some people, for example, prefer to separate wired and wireless networks. Internode provide a /56, which should be more than enough for anything short of a large organization. I suspect you could work around the above issues using DHCPv6. I haven't looked at the available DHCPv6 servers in quite a while. When I last checked, ISC DHCP still had significant catching up to do, especially in its support for prefix delegation. To handle the connection to Internode, which relies on DHCPv6 prefix delegation to supply the /56 block, I use wide-dhcpv6-client; I then let neighbour discovery (via radvd) propagate addresses to the local LAN, which in practice means my laptop, as the other devices on the LAN are all IPv4-only equipment such as a SIP phone and a printer. Incidentally, a friend recently bought one of these multifunction (printer/scanner/fax) devices, which supports IPv6 in its networking firmware: http://www.brother-usa.com/mfc/modeldetail.aspx?PRODUCTID=mfc7860dw&tab=spec We'll see more of those. I also know people who would like to become informed of any IPv6-capable SIP phones on the market.
At 08:40 PM 1/13/2013, Jason White wrote:
Tony Langdon <vk3jed@gmail.com> wrote:
A /64 should do most home networks.
It should indeed. However, if you're using neighbour discovery (e.g., radvd in Linux) to deliver addresses to hosts, my understanding is that you need to use a /64 due to the way in which the host address is calculated - usually from the MAC address.
Of course, you don't have to do that, and then it is possible to divide a /64 (would have to use static addressing or DHCPv6)
Consequently, it's hard to make subnets with only a /64. Some people, for example, prefer to separate wired and wireless networks.
I did say _most_ home networks. ;-)
Internode provide a /56, which should be more than enough for anything short of a large organization.
It's going to be more than I'll ever use. Only using a /64 out of my /56 at this stage.
I suspect you could work around the above issues using DHCPv6. I haven't looked at the available DHCPv6 servers in quite a while. When I last checked, ISC DHCP still had significant catching up to do, especially in its support for prefix delegation. To handle the connection to Internode, which relies on
DHCPv6 would be one option, static addressing another.
DHCPv6 prefix delegation to supply the /56 block, I use wide-dhcpv6-client; I then let neighbour discovery (via radvd) propagate addresses to the local LAN, which in practice means my laptop, as the other devices on the LAN are all IPv4-only equipment such as a SIP phone and a printer.
My router looks after all of that. The router is advertising a /64 prefix to the LAN. I have several IPv6 capable devices - a number of PCs, one Mac, and a handful of iPhones and iPads (yes, the iOS devices support IPv6).
Incidentally, a friend recently bought one of these multifunction (printer/scanner/fax) devices, which supports IPv6 in its networking firmware: http://www.brother-usa.com/mfc/modeldetail.aspx?PRODUCTID=mfc7860dw&tab=spec
Sign of the times. :-)
We'll see more of those. I also know people who would like to become informed of any IPv6-capable SIP phones on the market.
That would be handy, though the SIP gateways I use don't support IPv6 (yet). 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
Tony Langdon <vk3jed@gmail.com> wrote:
DHCPv6 would be one option, static addressing another.
Exactly.
DHCPv6 prefix delegation to supply the /56 block, I use wide-dhcpv6-client; I then let neighbour discovery (via radvd) propagate addresses to the local LAN, which in practice means my laptop, as the other devices on the LAN are all IPv4-only equipment such as a SIP phone and a printer.
My router looks after all of that. The router is advertising a /64 prefix to the LAN. I have several IPv6 capable devices - a number of PCs, one Mac, and a handful of iPhones and iPads (yes, the iOS devices support IPv6).
My Linux machine is also serving as the router and the modem (with a Traverse Technologies ADSL card).
We'll see more of those. I also know people who would like to become informed of any IPv6-capable SIP phones on the market.
That would be handy, though the SIP gateways I use don't support IPv6 (yet).
FreeSWITCH and Asterisk both support it. I don't know of any SIP to PSTN gateway available through an ISP that does, but on the other hand, IPv6 certainly simplifies making calls to other peoples' SIP clients or FreeSWITCH/Asterisk systems (provided they have it on their networks, of course). In essence, NAT goes away.
At 09:03 PM 1/13/2013, Jason White wrote:
My Linux machine is also serving as the router and the modem (with a Traverse Technologies ADSL card).
I don't have the money to run anything bigger than a router 24x7. My days of running big servers at home are over.
We'll see more of those. I also know people who would like to
become informed
of any IPv6-capable SIP phones on the market.
That would be handy, though the SIP gateways I use don't support IPv6 (yet).
FreeSWITCH and Asterisk both support it. I don't know of any SIP to PSTN gateway available through an ISP that does, but on the other hand, IPv6 certainly simplifies making calls to other peoples' SIP clients or FreeSWITCH/Asterisk systems (provided they have it on their networks, of course). In essence, NAT goes away.
Yeah, the sooner we get rid of NAT, the better. It complicates so many things. :-( IPv6 is the only way we're going to get rid of NAT. :-) Yes, the software may support it, but it's often sitting on networks that don't. 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
On 13/01/2013, at 20:51, Tony Langdon <vk3jed@gmail.com> wrote:
A /64 should do most home networks.
It should indeed. However, if you're using neighbour discovery (e.g., radvd in Linux) to deliver addresses to hosts, my understanding is that you need to use a /64 due to the way in which the host address is calculated - usually from the MAC address.
Of course, you don't have to do that, and then it is possible to divide a /64 (would have to use static addressing or DHCPv6)
the various ipv6 rfcs require a /64 for host subnets. you should ever further divide a /64, except in rare circumstances like point to point links. the rfcs also suggest a minimum of /56 per customer, and /48 for larger sites and provider-independent (PI) allocations. breaking up a /64 will cause problems for various technologies that expect the rfcs to be implemented properly. it's basically set up in ipv6 that the first 64 bits are entirely for routing, while the last 64 bits are entirely for hosts.
On 14 January 2013 09:46, hannah commodore <hannah@tinfoilhat.net> wrote:
the various ipv6 rfcs require a /64 for host subnets. you should ever further divide a /64, except in rare circumstances like point to point links. the rfcs also suggest a minimum of /56 per customer, and /48 for larger sites and provider-independent (PI) allocations.
Plus, if you have both wired and wifi networks, it is good practise to have them on separate networks. So a single /64 might be insufficient even for typical home use. Or if it is sufficient, there is no room for future expansion. -- Brian May <brian@microcomaustralia.com.au>
On 14 January 2013 09:46, hannah commodore <hannah@tinfoilhat.net> wrote:
the various ipv6 rfcs require a /64 for host subnets. you should ever further divide a /64, except in rare circumstances like point to point links.
the rfcs also suggest a minimum of /56 per customer, and /48 for larger sites and provider-independent (PI) allocations.
Plus, if you have both wired and wifi networks, it is good practise to have them on separate networks. So a single /64 might be insufficient even for typical home use. Or if it is sufficient, there is no room for future expansion.
Typical home use would normally demand that everything is on the same layer 2 network, or the various media devices don't talk to each other as there are many implementations of UPnP that use TTL=1 for their multicast packets meaning they can't cross a router without some funky NAT/mangle rules (I do this at home for my blu-ray player so the android remote control app works). A /64 for typical home use will be just fine for now. James
On 13/01/13 20:05, Tony Langdon wrote:
A /64 should do most home networks.
Where “most” doesn’t include power users. A /64 cannot be divided any further without breaking router advertisement (which you REALLY do not want to do). In fact, using anything other than a /64 on a direct interface (i.e. not a route) is officially deprecated. In addition, operating systems such as iOS or Android do not allow static configuration of IPv6 and thus completely depend on router advertisement. A fair few non-power users use multiple subnets without realising it — all the time I come across people who have purchased a wired-only ADSL modem, and put a wireless router behind it. That’s two (currently IPv4, could become IPv6 if CPE one day supports sub-DHCPv6-PD) subnets right there. (If you’ve ever wondered why most ADSL modem/routers default to 192.168.1.0/24, and most non-ADSL routers default to 192.168.2.0/24, this is the precise use case in mind.) I’m a power user, and have used 5 × /64’s out of my /56 at various stages. So a /60 would do me nicely, but I can think of a couple of my own clients who are approaching 16 separate subnets. A /56 would be needed for them. It’s easier to estimate IP allocation growth when you have to deal with x number of customers, rather than needing to separately deal with business/residential trends if you are delegating different sized subnets to each demographic. In other words, it’s much easier to just give a /56 to everyone. You’ve gotta pick your battles. Squeezing 100% efficiency out of your IP allocations isn’t one I want to fight.
participants (6)
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Brian May -
hannah commodore -
James Harper -
Jason White -
Jeremy Visser -
Tony Langdon