Hi, I bought a ZTE phone with Firefox on it (from eBay for ca. $90, still on the way to me), mostly out of curiosity. I am browsing around about licensing and source code. Well, I find some information on the Mozilla website, with some hints about using Linux and some components. I have not find "the" source code yet. I am curious about it, how much of it is "vanilla Linux" and userland, how to get a shell, how to extend it, how to update etc. Do you know more about it? Regards Peter
On 27 Nov 2013, at 2:54 pm, Petros <Petros.Listig@fdrive.com.au> wrote:
I bought a ZTE phone with Firefox on it (from eBay for ca. $90, still on the way to me), mostly out of curiosity.
I am curious about it, how much of it is "vanilla Linux" and userland, how to get a shell, how to extend it, how to update etc.
Likely none of it is “vanilla Linux”. I’m guessing it is running Android (knowing it runs Android will likely help with your Google-fu!). By default, retail Android phones are locked down with no form of shell or root access. Think of an Android as a completely new OS that happens to use the Linux kernel, with almost no traditional Linux userland. The “apps” you run on it, such as Firefox, are glorified Java packages, and by default only signed packages downloaded through the Google Play Store are allowed (this can be overridden on most phones, although the manufacturer is free to break this functionality). This helps reduce malware and increase usability at the cost of freedom. Here is the developer portal for Firefox on Android if you’re curious to download the source code: <https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox_for_Android> To get a root shell on an Android phone, you must “root” it. Close to no manufacturers officially support this, so to “root” the phone you must run an exploit against it. The exploit varies upon device manufacturer, model, and OS version, so you will need to do your own research here. Nobody will support you if you do this, so only do it if you are prepared to support yourself, including de-bricking your phone if you break it. If you are a developer looking to do cool hacks with your phone, rooting is an awesome idea. If you are a normal person or geek looking to use your phone as, well, a phone, then don’t root it. Buy an ordinary PC and you get root on that by default without any exploits.
On 27 November 2013 15:13, Jeremy Visser <jeremy@visser.name> wrote:
To get a root shell on an Android phone, you must “root” it. Close to no manufacturers officially support this, so to “root” the phone you must run an exploit against it. The exploit varies upon device manufacturer, model, and OS version, so you will need to do your own research here. Nobody will support you if you do this, so only do it if you are prepared to support yourself, including de-bricking your phone if you break it.
This is no longer the case -- you can legitimately "get root" on many Android devices these days -- you just usually have to tick a box on a disclaimer first, acknowledging that you're discarding tech support and the warranty and losing access to DRM-enabled components.
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 07:08:52PM +1100, Toby Corkindale wrote:
you can legitimately "get root" on many Android devices these days -- you just usually have to tick a box on a disclaimer first, acknowledging that you're discarding tech support and the warranty
which is at leat partially bullshit in this country - you can't sign away your statutory rights and a company can't avoid their legal obligations just by saying "we don't want to", and that includes consumer protection rights such as statutory warranties. replacing the firmware with third-party fw (cyanogenmod or something) may mean that getting tech support for the *software* is pointless or impossible, but the hardware is still covered by warranty, no matter what the corporation asking you to tick the acknowledgment checkbox wants you to believe.
and losing access to DRM-enabled components.
yes, there's that as a bonus, too. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>
On 29 November 2013 09:35, Craig Sanders <cas@taz.net.au> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 07:08:52PM +1100, Toby Corkindale wrote:
you can legitimately "get root" on many Android devices these days -- you just usually have to tick a box on a disclaimer first, acknowledging that you're discarding tech support and the warranty
which is at leat partially bullshit in this country - you can't sign away your statutory rights and a company can't avoid their legal obligations just by saying "we don't want to", and that includes consumer protection rights such as statutory warranties.
On this topic, see http://www.cyanogenmod.org/blog/cyanogenmod-installer-application-removed-fr... Which is also rubbish IMHO. I haven't voided the warranty on my Desktop computer by installing Linux on it. Why should it matter if my computer is considerably smaller and has a touch screen instead of a keyboard/mouse?
On 29 November 2013 09:48, Brian May <brian@microcomaustralia.com.au> wrote:
I haven't voided the warranty on my Desktop computer by installing Linux on it. Why should it matter if my computer is considerably smaller and has a touch screen instead of a keyboard/mouse?
Because around the world, a whole load of phones were returned and replaced as faulty under warranty after people bricked them while trying to install custom firmware, and retailers don't have any way to tell the difference between hardware failure and software-failure-via-user in an embedded device. (What is the clerk at Carphone Warehouse going to do? Pop over the phone, solder wires onto the JTAG pads, boot up a serial debugger, etc? No, they're just going to go "oh.. it doesn't turn on. Guess we'll replace it then.") You and I see it as a small, portable computer, but everyone else up the chain sees it as a device. They think that installing a new OS on it is a bit like opening up your television and wiring a microwave oven up to it. You'd never think your warranty was valid if you were soldering new components inside a television, right? To the manufacturer, your mobile firmware is just another component. And their warranty is on all the components as a whole; not just some of them. They'll come around to the idea that it's a computer sooner or later. They've already made it easier/safer to flash firmwares, because I guess they figured that results in less bricked phones coming in under warranty.
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 09:48:32AM +1100, Brian May wrote:
On this topic, see http://www.cyanogenmod.org/blog/cyanogenmod-installer-application-removed-fr...
Which is also rubbish IMHO.
yep. but google (and htc and samsung and just about every other manufacturer of every other kind of product) wants you to think that some trivial action means that you've magically voided your statutory rights. if they can convince enough people and put enough annoying obstacles in the way (e.g. arguing your way past a drone parroting the company line even though it contradicts the law is an unenjoyable and time-wasting PITA) then they can massively reduce - or eliminate entirely - the number of people who actually try to make use of their warranty rights. same as many retail shops post illegal signs like "no refunds" or have company policies that tell you that you have to deal with the manufacturer directly (illegal in this country) or refuse cash refunds and only allow exchange or store credit. (you can't demand to return a product just because you changed your mind, but if the item is broken or not fit for the purpose it was sold for, then you have a right to refuse an exchange and insist on a refund) (MSY, for example, have been caught out with crap like this in the past and have been forced to post signs in their shops advising consumers of their statutory rights)
I haven't voided the warranty on my Desktop computer by installing Linux on it. Why should it matter if my computer is considerably smaller and has a touch screen instead of a keyboard/mouse?
you haven't and it doesn't. they just want you to think you have so you don't bother them if/when the hardware fails. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:51:50AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:
company policies that tell you that you have to deal with the manufacturer directly (illegal in this country)
sorry, that's ambiguous. it's not illegal for a customer to deal with manufacturers directly if they choose to. it's illegal for a retailer to tell a customer "we don't do warranties, contact the manufacturer". they sold it to you, they have a legal obligation to deal with the warranty. company policy doesn't override the law any more than a personal policy of "i can take whatever i want without paying for it" does. both cases are equally absurd. unfortunately, lots of people have been suckered into believing that the former is both legitimate and enforcable. craig
-----Original Message----- From: luv-main-bounces@luv.asn.au [mailto:luv-main-bounces@luv.asn.au] On Behalf Of Craig Sanders Sent: Friday, 29 November 2013 11:52 AM To: luv-main@luv.asn.au Subject: Re: Firefox OS and ZTE phone
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 09:48:32AM +1100, Brian May wrote:
On this topic, see http://www.cyanogenmod.org/blog/cyanogenmod-installer-application- removed-from-play-store
Which is also rubbish IMHO.
yep. but google (and htc and samsung and just about every other manufacturer of every other kind of product) wants you to think that some trivial action means that you've magically voided your statutory rights.
You are correct about the statuatory rights, but the common "repair or replace, at our option" style clause can still be applied without in any way voiding those rights. They could choose the repair option and send the device back to the manufacturer. The manufacturer could then perform hardware level tests and finding no fault at the hardware level, they could then reply that the it is not a warranty repair, and offer to reflash the stock ROM images as a chargable repair or return the item unrepaired.
if they can convince enough people and put enough annoying obstacles in the way (e.g. arguing your way past a drone parroting the company line even though it contradicts the law is an unenjoyable and time-wasting PITA) then they can massively reduce - or eliminate entirely - the number of people who actually try to make use of their warranty rights.
same as many retail shops post illegal signs like "no refunds" or have company policies that tell you that you have to deal with the manufacturer directly (illegal in this country) or refuse cash refunds and only allow exchange or store credit. (you can't demand to return a product just because you changed your mind, but if the item is broken or not fit for the purpose it was sold for, then you have a right to refuse an exchange and insist on a refund)
(MSY, for example, have been caught out with crap like this in the past and have been forced to post signs in their shops advising consumers of their statutory rights)
I haven't voided the warranty on my Desktop computer by installing Linux on it. Why should it matter if my computer is considerably smaller and has a touch screen instead of a keyboard/mouse?
you haven't and it doesn't. they just want you to think you have so you don't bother them if/when the hardware fails.
In this case however, it is not a hardware failure. With old motherboards, the BIOS was stored in a removable EEPROM. You can hardly argue that replacing such an EEPROM with a third party BIOS EEPROM would be covered by the motherboard manufacturer's warranty. Flashing the ROM on the phone is equivalent to erasing and rewriting the contents of a motherboards EEPROM. The hardware would still be 100% original with no hardware faults, but the board still would not boot. Modern motherboards are even easier to corrupt the BIOS as no uncommon hardware is required (ie, no EEPROM programmer). Even when installing linux on a desktop PC, if the installation crashes or corrupts the hard drive, so that you can't boot the PC, the original supplier can't be expected to class that as a warranty claim. Regards, Morrie.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 13:08:29 Morrie Wyatt wrote:
Even when installing linux on a desktop PC, if the installation crashes or corrupts the hard drive, so that you can't boot the PC, the original supplier can't be expected to class that as a warranty claim.
The contents of the hard drive are not covered under warranty. The supplier should be able to replace the hard drive for the purpose of running tests. It should only be required that it be possible to demonstrate the problem. IBM and Lenovo have a good history of accepting Thinkpads for warranty repair with the hard drive removed. Sometimes I've taken in a Thinkpad with a floppy disk to boot and demonstrate the problem, sometimes I've just given a description and let them use a boot CD or hard drive for their tests. At one time IBM even had a check-box on the warranty form for whether the hard drive was installed as it was so common for people to remove the disk. On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 11:51:50 Craig Sanders wrote:
and only allow exchange or store credit. (you can't demand to return a product just because you changed your mind, but if the item is broken or not fit for the purpose it was sold for, then you have a right to refuse an exchange and insist on a refund)
(MSY, for example, have been caught out with crap like this in the past and have been forced to post signs in their shops advising consumers of their statutory rights)
http://etbe.coker.com.au/2010/04/30/cpl-still-sucks/ CPL is another company that sucks in this regard. I'm still willing to donate money to someone who wants to make a full-time job out of persuing TPA complaints against such companies. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
On 29/11/13 16:33, Russell Coker wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 13:08:29 Morrie Wyatt wrote:
Even when installing linux on a desktop PC, if the installation crashes or corrupts the hard drive, so that you can't boot the PC, the original supplier can't be expected to class that as a warranty claim.
The contents of the hard drive are not covered under warranty. The supplier should be able to replace the hard drive for the purpose of running tests. It should only be required that it be possible to demonstrate the problem.
IBM and Lenovo have a good history of accepting Thinkpads for warranty repair with the hard drive removed. Sometimes I've taken in a Thinkpad with a floppy disk to boot and demonstrate the problem, sometimes I've just given a description and let them use a boot CD or hard drive for their tests. At one time IBM even had a check-box on the warranty form for whether the hard drive was installed as it was so common for people to remove the disk.
Pretty much anyone that sells hardware to large "enterprise" customers will allow this, even if not to everyone. We had it from HP at my previous job, and from Seagate as a tiny small business. My laptop at $DAYJOB actually has it listed on the serial number sticker that the machine is expected to have the drive missing when returned for support.
On 27 November 2013 14:54, Petros <Petros.Listig@fdrive.com.au> wrote:
Hi,
I bought a ZTE phone with Firefox on it (from eBay for ca. $90, still on the way to me),
Do you mean a ZTE phone running Firefox OS? Or a ZTE phone running Android, with Firefox as an app? If you are referring to Firefox OS, have you seen the Firefox OS documentation? e.g.: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox_OS/Platform/Architecture
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 02:54:05PM +1100, Petros wrote:
I bought a ZTE phone with Firefox on it (from eBay for ca. $90, still on the way to me),
mostly out of curiosity.
I am browsing around about licensing and source code.
Well, I find some information on the Mozilla website, with some hints about using Linux and some components. I have not find "the" source code yet.
I am curious about it, how much of it is "vanilla Linux" and userland, how to get a shell, how to extend it, how to update etc.
Do you know more about it?
for fun I ported FirefoxOS (aka b2g/Boot to Gecko) to an older armv6 ZTE phone(*). it was a while ago, but +/- b2g having changed recently I think I can still remember roughly how it works... Firefox OS is Android based, but the user-visible layer has been replaced. in particular surfaceflinger (like X11 + windowmanager) has been replaced by gonk (a simple display server that uses android APIs) with a lot of help from mozilla's gecko. they're started from the android init system and /system/bin/b2g.sh all the mozilla source is open eg. https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/B2G with ok guides https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox_OS/Porting and there are plenty of patches for b2g in their normal bugzilla https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/ using Android as a base ensures most hardware will be compatible. in particular it means they can drive the GPU binary blob enough to get 2d and 3d surfaces that gecko can render to. I guess they could re-visit the android dependency later if it takes off... FirefoxOS apps are html5 (IIRC) and the OS GUI code 'gaia' (settings, desktop, inbuilt apps like phone dialer, contacts, etc.) is largely css/js. android mostly uses sandboxed java for both. kernel, busybox etc. are all just the same as android or cyanogenmod for the phone. almost all the native android daemons are still running too - eg. rild, rilproxy (phone), netd (like NetworkManager), vold (fs mounts), servicemanager (like init), drmserver, mediaserver, wpa_supplicant etc. and gaia understands how to talk to these to make the phone function. you can likely get a root shell by using a USB cable and 'adb' the same as android. IIRC firefox OS phones ship with root shell enabled, but if you happen to get a '%' prompt then try su. otherwise it's exploit time. from the shell prompt it's all fairly 'linux like' (+/- busybox instead of real tools, and the init system), same as android. as for extending and updating I'm not sure how firefox folks want you to handle it. updating the gaia code should be pretty easy - especially as they seem to put that onto the read-write /data part of the phone. the OS and gecko/gonk parts on /system would usually need a re-flash of some sort. overall it's mostly the same as android modifying. ie. usually quite a pain as most of the 'good bits' with early or root access are in the initramfs ramdisk and/or on the read-only /system. it's all quite possible if you have root, but some of it depends on how much of the phone's android-OS src you have from ZTE. it also depends whether you want gui/phone/camera/wifi parts to work, and how much time you have to spend. I digress, but in general if you just want a small linux computer then things like RPi, cubieboard are somewhat easier to get real OS's (fedora, ubuntu, etc.) running on. even then, accelerated graphics remains problematic. I think all small arm thingies still have binary blob graphics, but some have linux/glibc blobs instead of android blobs(?). kernel versions are typically frozen because of these blobs. lima and freedreno etc. are making progress fast though :) cheers, robin (*) http://www.modaco.com/topic/364052-devrom-firefox-os-for-zte-v9-alpha-not-fo...
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 01:14:27AM -0500, Robin Humble wrote:
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 02:54:05PM +1100, Petros wrote:
I bought a ZTE phone with Firefox on it (from eBay for ca. $90, still on the way to me), ... Well, I find some information on the Mozilla website, with some hints about using Linux and some components. I have not find "the" source code yet. possible if you have root, but some of it depends on how much of the phone's android-OS src you have from ZTE. it also depends whether you
BTW the android code-name for the ZTE open looks to be 'inari' https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox_OS/Firefox_OS_build_prerequisite... and there's a device tree and manifest for it https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/device-inari https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/b2g-manifest/blob/master/inari.xml so it should be easy to follow the mozilla instructions and flash newer b2g images for it, +/- the 50G of android and b2g downloads before you can get started :-) also at first glance it also looks similar to a lot of other ZTE phones, some of which have other OS's already ported to them if that interests you. eg. http://www.modaco.com/topic/361024-devrom256-ubuntu-touch/ cheers, robin
On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 02:54:05 PM Petros wrote:
I am curious about it, how much of it is "vanilla Linux" and userland, how to get a shell, how to extend it, how to update etc.
You can try it out in the Firefox browser thanks to this simulator add-on: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/firefox-os-simulator/ with documentation here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Tools/Firefox_OS_Simulator cheers! Chris -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC This email may come with a PGP signature as a file. Do not panic. For more info see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP
participants (10)
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Brian May -
Chris Samuel -
Craig Sanders -
Jeremy Visser -
Julien Goodwin -
Morrie Wyatt -
Petros -
Robin Humble -
Russell Coker -
Toby Corkindale