Re: Is systemd a benefit or a liability? [Was: btrfs :(]
Brian May said,
How many times do you expect the developer's to do this?
What is happening is as more and more people are becoming aware of systemd, people are raising the similar concerns over and over again.>
I don't think it is surprising that the developers might be getting tired of having the same discussions over and over again. They could be spending their time better fixing these problems rather then arguing the same thing for the x millionth time.
Nor is it surprising that some legitimate concerns might not be getting addressed to everyone's satisfaction.
Firstly thanks to Russell for the response, some good info there, Now I do value your opinion but........ I am trying to make a decision based on good and reliable evidence and I do apreciate that if one spends all the time reading stuff on the net one will never get anything done. The problem from a person outside the immediate discussion on systemd is that there are ___plenty___ of sites running down systemd but I have yet to find a site that presents the pro case in an un biased manner, one certainly cannot rely on its main developers for such data. From my experience on researching information on computor systems such an absence is likely to mean there is no such evidence. Note, Russel mentioned something that does complicate the issue, that is if systemd devs will not except Debians input they may fork it. This changes the situation quite a bit as I have far more trust in the Debian devs than some maverick developers going against all unix traditions. We the debian users though would still like to know debians pro case. If we the general Linux user is expected to make a rational judgment we must have both cases presented in a decent fashion, simply saying most users do not need to know the pro case will almost surely end up in a grave misscarriage of justice. Lindsay
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, zlinw@mcmedia.com.au wrote:
I am trying to make a decision based on good and reliable evidence and I do
When Debian/Jessie is relased you can just try it out and that will be your "good and reliable evidence". Just test the different distributions and see which one works best.
apreciate that if one spends all the time reading stuff on the net one will never get anything done. The problem from a person outside the immediate discussion on systemd is that there are ___plenty___ of sites running down systemd but I have yet to find a site that presents the pro case in an un biased manner, one certainly cannot rely on its main developers for such data. From my experience on researching information on computor systems such an absence is likely to mean there is no such evidence.
Not that you are going to find "anti" sites that are unbiased.
Note, Russel mentioned something that does complicate the issue, that is if systemd devs will not except Debians input they may fork it.
Systemd is no different from any other Debian package in this regard.
This changes the situation quite a bit as I have far more trust in the Debian devs than some maverick developers going against all unix traditions. We the debian users though would still like to know debians pro case.
Read the discussions on debian-devel.
If we the general Linux user is expected to make a rational judgment we must have both cases presented in a decent fashion, simply saying most users do not need to know the pro case will almost surely end up in a grave misscarriage of justice.
I think that the problem here is users who are too arrogant. It's simply not your decision what unpaid developers do with their time. We develop the software and you can use it if you like it. I can't think of any way to reasonbly equate "justice" to "non-contributors getting to give orders to people who do the work". There are two good options to you and other users who want to get involved with such discussions. Adjust your attitude to your status or adjust your status to match your attitude. To adjust your status you can start contributing to Debian. If you are unwilling or unable to do that then adjust your attitude to one that includes some gratitude to the people who develop the software you use. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
On 13 October 2014 15:43, Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, zlinw@mcmedia.com.au wrote:
I am trying to make a decision based on good and reliable evidence and I do
When Debian/Jessie is relased you can just try it out and that will be your "good and reliable evidence". Just test the different distributions and see which one works best.
I am running it here, using Wheezy + Backports. (The version in wheezy had some weird issue with not being able to umount schroot - that is fixed with the version in backports) While I haven't had any problems; I think the experience will be better when Jessie is released. e.g. no need to manually add init= to grub boot. Not to mention, my test laptop running Jessie seems to be fine too. Don't really do much on this computer however, except for occasionally turning it on to run "apt-get update" and "apt-get upgrade". -- Brian May <brian@microcomaustralia.com.au>
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 6:43 AM, Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:
I think that the problem here is users who are too arrogant.
It's simply not your decision what unpaid developers do with their time. We develop the software and you can use it if you like it.
Many Debian users make regular financial contributions. You say only developers contribute to Debian; now that *is* arrogant. Anders.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Anders Holmstrom <anders.sputnik@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 6:43 AM, Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:
I think that the problem here is users who are too arrogant.
It's simply not your decision what unpaid developers do with their time. We develop the software and you can use it if you like it.
Many Debian users make regular financial contributions. You say only developers contribute to Debian; now that *is* arrogant.
The amount of time I spent on the last version of selinux-policy-default would have earned me $1000 if I'd been doing paid work. Some DDs contributions equate to less than $10,000 a year of their paid time but most of the active DDs contribute a lot more. While some Debian users contribute a few hundred dollars at a time and a donation of $1000 isn't uncommon, it's quite rare for even corporations to donate $10,000 a year or more. Of money that is donated some portion may end up going to a Debconf which means that it gets to DDs. But the DDs who don't attend Debconfs (as I haven't for the last 10 years) get nothing other than the free LWN access (thanks HP) and some free Steam games (thanks Steam). My blog has a donation link. Send me a minimum of $1,000 if you want to tell me what to do. Anything less than $1,000 is just a gratuity for a tiny portion of the work that I've done in the past. I've received free entrance to conferences and other freebies related to lectures I've given. That's not for doing the FOSS coding, it's for talking about it. I have on one occasion had someone give me $US1,000. He didn't have any requests, but if he had some then I'd have listened. If your "contributions" to Debian amount to less than $10,000 per annum then please don't talk to people like Brian, Craig, and I about these things. It's rude. If you have been donating $10,000 a year to the Debian project then keep in mind the fact that Brian, Craig, and I have not received any of that so you still don't get to tell us what to do. For the casual observers to this thread. This is why DD's generally don't read debian-user. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
This is interesting: -----Original Message----- From: luv-main-bounces@luv.asn.au [mailto:luv-main-bounces@luv.asn.au] On Behalf Of Russell Coker
If your "contributions" to Debian amount to less than $10,000 per annum then please don't talk to people like Brian, Craig, and I about these things. It's rude. If you have been donating $10,000 a year to the Debian >project then keep in mind the fact that Brian, Craig, and I have not received any of that so you still don't get to tell us what to do.
If contributions are less than $10K then shut up; else shut up. Is that also how you code Russell? Regards Slav This e-mail and any attachments to it (the "Communication") is, unless otherwise stated, confidential, may contain copyright material and is for the use only of the intended recipient. If you receive the Communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete the Communication and the return e-mail, and do not read, copy, retransmit or otherwise deal with it. Any views expressed in the Communication are those of the individual sender only, unless expressly stated to be those of Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Limited ABN 11 005 357 522, or any of its related entities including ANZ Bank New Zealand Limited (together "ANZ"). ANZ does not accept liability in connection with the integrity of or errors in the Communication, computer virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from or in respect of the Communication.
On 13/10/2014 5:45 PM, Anders Holmstrom wrote:
Many Debian users make regular financial contributions. You say only developers contribute to Debian; now that *is* arrogant.
I think at times that Russell is the absolute height of arrogance. And of course there are other ways that users can contribute to Debian that Russell cannot appreciate. A.
Anders Holmstrom <anders.sputnik@gmail.com> writes:
You say only developers contribute to Debian; now that *is* arrogant.
Debian realized that a couple of years ago: http://www.debian.org/News/2010/20101019
participants (7)
-
Anders Holmstrom -
Andrew McGlashan -
Brian May -
Pidgorny, Slav(GPM) -
Russell Coker -
trentbuck＠gmail.com -
zlinw＠mcmedia.com.au