This seems a crazyness in debian bugfixing system to me: I am trying to get amanda to recover - and I have hit this bug reported in debian lenny where the client trying to do the recovery insists on using ipv6 to talk to an ipv4 machine which fails. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=482754 which has a fix in amanda-client Version: 1:2.5.2p1-5 as per bug report in **26 Mar 2009** - *BUT* where can I get this - today in Dec 2011???? http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running). Can some one explain - Why is this not released ? - Where do all these fixes go - some secret archive for debian insiders .... - How I can fix this with out : - grabbing the source and recompiling it all myself - upgrading the whole client machine to squeeze or some newer release Thanks in advance Andrew
On 08/12/11 10:06, Andrew Worsley wrote:
This seems a crazyness in debian bugfixing system to me:
I am trying to get amanda to recover - and I have hit this bug reported in debian lenny where the client trying to do the recovery insists on using ipv6 to talk to an ipv4 machine which fails.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=482754
which has a fix in amanda-client Version: 1:2.5.2p1-5 as per bug report in **26 Mar 2009**
- *BUT* where can I get this - today in Dec 2011????
Ubuntu. http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=names&keywords=amanda-client
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running).
Can some one explain - Why is this not released ? - Where do all these fixes go - some secret archive for debian insiders .... - How I can fix this with out : - grabbing the source and recompiling it all myself - upgrading the whole client machine to squeeze or some newer release
Thanks in advance
Andrew _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main
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I don't get it. Are you suggesting I install Ubuntu ? or that an Ubuntu package can be installed into a debian release? Why can't I just get the patched package mentioned in the bug report? Andrew On 8 December 2011 10:15, Toby Corkindale <toby.corkindale@strategicdata.com.au> wrote:
On 08/12/11 10:06, Andrew Worsley wrote:
This seems a crazyness in debian bugfixing system to me:
I am trying to get amanda to recover - and I have hit this bug reported in debian lenny where the client trying to do the recovery insists on using ipv6 to talk to an ipv4 machine which fails.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=482754
which has a fix in amanda-client Version: 1:2.5.2p1-5 as per bug report in **26 Mar 2009**
- *BUT* where can I get this - today in Dec 2011????
Ubuntu.
http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=names&keywords=amanda-client
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running).
Can some one explain - Why is this not released ? - Where do all these fixes go - some secret archive for debian insiders .... - How I can fix this with out : - grabbing the source and recompiling it all myself - upgrading the whole client machine to squeeze or some newer release
Thanks in advance
Andrew _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main
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On 08/12/11 10:22, Andrew Worsley wrote:
I don't get it. Are you suggesting I install Ubuntu ? or that an Ubuntu package can be installed into a debian release?
Why can't I just get the patched package mentioned in the bug report?
Sorry Andrew, I was being facetious. I'm not sure why Debian haven't uploaded their patched version after two years, but it wouldn't be the only package that's stuck on an old, buggy version that I've seen. Ubuntu tends to be much better at updating packages, despite being based on Debian, so maybe it's worth looking at switching next time you reinstall? In the meantime -- you could download the Ubuntu source package and rebuild it for Debian lenny, and it would most probably just work. Cheers, Toby
On 8 December 2011 10:15, Toby Corkindale <toby.corkindale@strategicdata.com.au> wrote:
On 08/12/11 10:06, Andrew Worsley wrote:
This seems a crazyness in debian bugfixing system to me:
I am trying to get amanda to recover - and I have hit this bug reported in debian lenny where the client trying to do the recovery insists on using ipv6 to talk to an ipv4 machine which fails.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=482754
which has a fix in amanda-client Version: 1:2.5.2p1-5 as per bug report in **26 Mar 2009**
- *BUT* where can I get this - today in Dec 2011????
Ubuntu.
http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=names&keywords=amanda-client
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running).
Can some one explain - Why is this not released ? - Where do all these fixes go - some secret archive for debian insiders .... - How I can fix this with out : - grabbing the source and recompiling it all myself - upgrading the whole client machine to squeeze or some newer release
Thanks in advance
Andrew _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main
-- .signature _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main
-- .signature
On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 10:34:51AM +1100, Toby Corkindale wrote:
I'm not sure why Debian haven't uploaded their patched version after two years, but it wouldn't be the only package that's stuck on an old, buggy version that I've seen.
they did. it got obsoleted and updated multiple times in sid long before squeeze was released. He's talking about Debian Lenny 5.0, released in Feb 2009. i.e. before the ipv6-patched version of amanda (Mar 2009) - which wasn't a security fix, so didn't get backported to Lenny and thus wasn't included in any of the security updates for Lenny (up to and including the most recent 5.0.9 in October this year). Debian Squeeze 6.0 was released in Feb this year. It has a much newer version of amanda which, presumably, doesn't have the ipv6 problem.
Ubuntu tends to be much better at updating packages, despite being based on Debian,
nope. ubuntu makes an actual release more often than debian. every six months, based on debian sid or testing plus their own ubuntu-isms (they also contribute patches and updates back to debian). debian only makes a release "when it's ready", but updated packages are available in testing or sid. ubuntu's amanda 1:2.5.2p1-5 WAS from debian. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au> BOFH excuse #103: operators on strike due to broken coffee machine
On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 10:22:25AM +1100, Andrew Worsley wrote:
Why can't I just get the patched package mentioned in the bug report?
because it was never in a released version of debian. it was only ever in sid and testing. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au> BOFH excuse #294: PCMCIA slave driver
Hi Andrew Debian keeps the old non maintained releases at archive.debian.org, you will need to adjust your sources file to use these instead of your local repo. Cheers Mike On 8/12/11 9:36 AM, Andrew Worsley wrote:
This seems a crazyness in debian bugfixing system to me:
I am trying to get amanda to recover - and I have hit this bug reported in debian lenny where the client trying to do the recovery insists on using ipv6 to talk to an ipv4 machine which fails.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=482754
which has a fix in amanda-client Version: 1:2.5.2p1-5 as per bug report in **26 Mar 2009**
- *BUT* where can I get this - today in Dec 2011????
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running).
Can some one explain - Why is this not released ? - Where do all these fixes go - some secret archive for debian insiders .... - How I can fix this with out : - grabbing the source and recompiling it all myself - upgrading the whole client machine to squeeze or some newer release
Thanks in advance
Andrew _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main
No lenny is maintained until Feb next year - and not listed there - I just looked at http://archive.debian.org/README On 8 December 2011 10:15, Mike O'Connor <mike@oeg.com.au> wrote:
Hi Andrew
Debian keeps the old non maintained releases at archive.debian.org, you will need to adjust your sources file to use these instead of your local repo.
Cheers Mike
On 8/12/11 9:36 AM, Andrew Worsley wrote:
This seems a crazyness in debian bugfixing system to me:
I am trying to get amanda to recover - and I have hit this bug reported in debian lenny where the client trying to do the recovery insists on using ipv6 to talk to an ipv4 machine which fails.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=482754
which has a fix in amanda-client Version: 1:2.5.2p1-5 as per bug report in **26 Mar 2009**
- *BUT* where can I get this - today in Dec 2011????
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running).
Can some one explain - Why is this not released ? - Where do all these fixes go - some secret archive for debian insiders .... - How I can fix this with out : - grabbing the source and recompiling it all myself - upgrading the whole client machine to squeeze or some newer release
Thanks in advance
Andrew _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main
Andrew Worsley wrote:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=482754
which has a fix in amanda-client Version: 1:2.5.2p1-5 as per bug report in **26 Mar 2009**
- *BUT* where can I get this - today in Dec 2011????
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running).
No lenny is maintained until Feb next year - and not listed there - I just looked at http://archive.debian.org/README
$ rmadison -uubuntu,debian amanda ubuntu: amanda | 1:2.5.2p1-1 | hardy/universe | source amanda | 1:2.6.1p1-2 | lucid/universe | source amanda | 1:3.1.0-1 | maverick/universe | source amanda | 1:3.2.1-1 | natty/universe | source amanda | 1:3.2.1-1.1 | oneiric/universe | source amanda | 1:3.3.0-1build1 | precise/universe | source debian: amanda | 1:2.6.1p2-3 | squeeze | source amanda | 1:3.3.0-1 | wheezy | source amanda | 1:3.3.0-1 | sid | source The fix was released to unstable. The fix almost certainly never migrated to lenny. The security team only backport release-critical fixes to oldstable. There is no instance of amanda in security.d.o for lenny. There is no instance of amanda in backports.d.o for lenny. The "fix" is to compile with IPv6 disabled. If upgrading to Debian 6 (current stable) is not an option, recommend simply rolling your own amanda .debs with that ./configure option set.
Hi Andrew Debian keeps the old non maintained releases at archive. .org, you will need to adjust your sources file to use these instead of your local repo. Cheers Mike On 8/12/11 9:36 AM, Andrew Worsley wrote:
This seems a crazyness in debian bugfixing system to me:
I am trying to get amanda to recover - and I have hit this bug reported in debian lenny where the client trying to do the recovery insists on using ipv6 to talk to an ipv4 machine which fails.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=482754
which has a fix in amanda-client Version: 1:2.5.2p1-5 as per bug report in **26 Mar 2009**
- *BUT* where can I get this - today in Dec 2011????
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running).
Can some one explain - Why is this not released ? - Where do all these fixes go - some secret archive for debian insiders .... - How I can fix this with out : - grabbing the source and recompiling it all myself - upgrading the whole client machine to squeeze or some newer release
Thanks in advance
Andrew _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main
On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 10:06:31 +1100, Andrew Worsley <amworsley@gmail.com> wrote:
This seems a crazyness in debian bugfixing system to me:
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running).
Can some one explain - Why is this not released ? - Where do all these fixes go - some secret archive for debian insiders .... - How I can fix this with out : - grabbing the source and recompiling it all myself - upgrading the whole client machine to squeeze or some newer release
When you run Debian stable, you will not get package upgrades, only security fixes. Otherwise it wouldn't be stable! Moreover, packages cannot be backported indefinitely for old releases, it would require too much work. If you have a package that you need to upgrade, then you have several options: 1) upgrade to the latest release of Debian (might involve some down time) 2) get the package from backports.org (assuming someone has taken the trouble to backport it) 3) recompile from source and resolve any dependency issues yourself 4) get the package from a newer release by adding in both repositories, and prioritizing the older one so that everything else doesn't get upgraded too 5) just grab the .deb file from a later release in packages.debian.org and install it (this assumes all the dependencies will 'just work') Glenn -- pgp.mit.edu 0x228AC090
Debiab does periodically have point releases that include changes other than security fixes. But thebchanges are small, are subject to review, and the process involves mre work for the maintainer than just uploading a fix to unstable and allowing it to go into the next release and maybe backports. -- My blog http://etbe.coker.com.au Sent from an Xperia X10 Android phone
Thanks Glenn and others for the responses this is much more informative. It is frustrating that from the bug what appears to be just one patch higher than the current version was made and is apparently *NOT* accessible at any obvious place. Even if you don't want to make it part of the stable release if some one makes the effort to build that version: amanda (1:2.5.2p1-5) unstable; urgency=low why not keep it some where? Are these just over-written as part of squeeze development? Okay - just saw Craig's mail - I might follow that path if it's not too much work assuming I can get the source to that package if not the binary. Thanks again Andrew On 8 December 2011 10:32, Glenn McIntosh <neonsignal@memepress.org> wrote:
On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 10:06:31 +1100, Andrew Worsley <amworsley@gmail.com> wrote:
This seems a crazyness in debian bugfixing system to me:
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running).
Can some one explain - Why is this not released ? - Where do all these fixes go - some secret archive for debian insiders .... - How I can fix this with out : - grabbing the source and recompiling it all myself - upgrading the whole client machine to squeeze or some newer release
When you run Debian stable, you will not get package upgrades, only security fixes. Otherwise it wouldn't be stable!
Moreover, packages cannot be backported indefinitely for old releases, it would require too much work.
If you have a package that you need to upgrade, then you have several options: 1) upgrade to the latest release of Debian (might involve some down time) 2) get the package from backports.org (assuming someone has taken the trouble to backport it) 3) recompile from source and resolve any dependency issues yourself 4) get the package from a newer release by adding in both repositories, and prioritizing the older one so that everything else doesn't get upgraded too 5) just grab the .deb file from a later release in packages.debian.org and install it (this assumes all the dependencies will 'just work')
Glenn -- pgp.mit.edu 0x228AC090 _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main
On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 10:32:20AM +1100, Glenn McIntosh wrote:
Moreover, packages cannot be backported indefinitely for old releases, it would require too much work.
it would also be pointless because you'd end up with the next debian release or sid anyway. and from the user's POV, it would be a lot more trouble because it wouldn't be used by anywhere near as many people so would be less tested that testing or sid. and it would defeat the purpose of a 'stable' release too. 'stable' and 'bleeding edge' are pretty much mutually exclusive. debian makes it easy to run a mostly-stable release with a few selected packages from sid or testing, but if you have too many such updated packages you eventually get to the point where you're better off just upgrading the entire system to testing or sid. so, - use stable if you don't ever want any surprises - use testing if you want near bleeding edge but with other people being the alpha testers - use sid if you want bleeding edge and are willing to be the discoverer of occasionally hilarious surprises (don't forget to report bugs)
If you have a package that you need to upgrade, then you have several options: 1) upgrade to the latest release of Debian (might involve some down time) 2) get the package from backports.org (assuming someone has taken the trouble to backport it) 3) recompile from source and resolve any dependency issues yourself 4) get the package from a newer release by adding in both repositories, and prioritizing the older one so that everything else doesn't get upgraded too 5) just grab the .deb file from a later release in packages.debian.org and install it (this assumes all the dependencies will 'just work')
yep. there are several variations on those themes, but they're the basic choices. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au> BOFH excuse #205: Quantum dynamics are affecting the transistors
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:47, Craig Sanders <cas@taz.net.au> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 10:32:20AM +1100, Glenn McIntosh wrote:
If you have a package that you need to upgrade, then you have several options: 1) upgrade to the latest release of Debian (might involve some down time) 2) get the package from backports.org (assuming someone has taken the trouble to backport it) 3) recompile from source and resolve any dependency issues yourself 4) get the package from a newer release by adding in both repositories, and prioritizing the older one so that everything else doesn't get upgraded too 5) just grab the .deb file from a later release in packages.debian.org and install it (this assumes all the dependencies will 'just work')
yep. there are several variations on those themes, but they're the basic choices.
Another variation: grab a the snapshot version the bug was fixed in from here: http://snapshot.debian.org/package/amanda/ Having said that, I'd only install the snapshot to verify the bug was fixed, then hunt backports for a version, while planning how to upgrade from oldstable to stable. Marcus. -- Marcus Furlong
On 8 December 2011 12:09, Marcus Furlong <furlongm@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:47, Craig Sanders <cas@taz.net.au> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 10:32:20AM +1100, Glenn McIntosh wrote:
.....
Another variation: grab a the snapshot version the bug was fixed in from here:
http://snapshot.debian.org/package/amanda/
Having said that, I'd only install the snapshot to verify the bug was fixed, then hunt backports for a version, while planning how to upgrade from oldstable to stable.
Marcus. -- Marcus Furlong
Wow! this is what I wanted - the wayback time machine to debian packages.... I found it at: http://snapshot.debian.org/package/amanda/1%3A2.5.2p1-5/#amanda-client_1:3a:... Thanks Marcus for that Also thanks Craig - I actually did extract the source package from your link and re-built it (not that hard following instructions here - http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/rebuilding-ubuntu-debian-linux-binary-package/ and then did an install. Yep - this machine is scheduled for replacement soon - hence reluctance to upgrade it. By the way I also hit another bug in my travels - dump: (I installed the testing version of this - on a different machine) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=614068 This was a work around of another bug in tar incrementals which looped apparently endlessly (there are other bugs) so I switched to dump... Didn't find a bug specific to this - and it only happened on a 200Gb disk drive so not sure what was the trigger - but it didn't happen if you didn't request incremental tar (amanda does by default). Just thought I would mention this - because if you are relying on tar/dump/amanda for back ups - you might want to check you are not bitten by these before you *really* need them to be working... Thanks again for everyone's rapid / prompt replies. Andrew
On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 10:06:31AM +1100, Andrew Worsley wrote:
This seems a crazyness in debian bugfixing system to me:
what you're complaining about is the distribution release schedule, not the "bugfixing system". the bug tracker worked fine, you found that the problem was known and that there was a patch to fix it. you're just confused about how debian's releases and WIP pre-preleases work.
I am trying to get amanda to recover - and I have hit this bug reported in debian lenny where the client trying to do the recovery insists on using ipv6 to talk to an ipv4 machine which fails.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=482754
which has a fix in amanda-client Version: 1:2.5.2p1-5 as per bug report in **26 Mar 2009**
- *BUT* where can I get this - today in Dec 2011????
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=amanda-client lists the latest lenny version as 1:2.5.2p1-4 (the version I am running).
easiest way is to upgrade to squeeze. or just upgrade amanda-client from squeeze. as that URL mentions, . lenny has 1:2.5.2p1-4 . squeeze has 1:2.6.1p2-3 . wheezy (testing) and sid (unstable) have 1:3.3.0-1+b1 you could try searching in debian backports, but i didn't find it in there (i only spent 30 seconds attempting it, so it might be there. dunno. personally, i think backports is a waste of time and you're better off just upgrading). find out more about debian backports at: http://wiki.debian.org/Backports if you want to backport a newer version yourself, download the debianised sources for 2.6.1p2-3 or 3.3.0-1+b1 and rebuild the package. Note that for many packages (i.e. ones that don't have complex dependancies) this is very simple and low hassle, but for some packages (that depend on newer versions of other pkgs such as libraries) you have to manually chase the dependancy chain and compile (and install) newer versions of the things it depends on....it's far less hassle to just upgrade either the entire distro or (see below) just the specific packages. alternatively, download the .dsc, .orig.tar.gz, and .diff.gz files for 1:2.5.2p1-5 from here: https://launchpad.net/debian/sid/+source/amanda/1:2.5.2p1-5 or here: http://amanda.sourcearchive.com/downloads/1:2.5.2p1-5/ then use dpkg-source to extract the debianised sources, and dpkg-buildpackage to compile them. then install with dpkg. you will need to install 'build-essential' first, and whatever build-dependancies amanda has: Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5), dump, gnuplot, libncurses5-dev, libreadline5-dev | libreadline-dev, libtool, flex, perl, smbclient, mailx, lpr, mtx, xfsdump, po-debconf this should compile and install on lenny with no hassle.
Can some one explain - Why is this not released ?
it was in sid and in testing over 2 years ago. but it got upgraded multiple times by the time squeeze was released, so squeeze ended up with 2.6.1p2-3 the thing to remember about a debian 'stable' release like lenny, or squeeze, or the forthcoming 'wheezy' (currently still 'testing') is that once it has been released, it only gets security updates and sometimes (rarely) bugfix backports for major bugs. No new packages, no new versions. that's WHY it's called 'stable'. 'Stable' in the sense that it doesn't change, not in the sense that it doesn't crash or that it's bug free. if you want newer packages, use 'testing' or backports. or sid.
- Where do all these fixes go - some secret archive for debian insiders ....
into 'sid', then they trickle into 'testing' which eventually becomes the next release of debian. alternatively, they might go into 'experimental', and from there eventually into sid (and then into testing).
- How I can fix this with out : - grabbing the source and recompiling it all myself - upgrading the whole client machine to squeeze or some newer release
it might be in backports. but as mentioned i couldn't find it. you don't have to upgrade the entire machine. In debian, you never have to upgrade the entire machine (although it's generally the best option to do so), you can have a machine that's mostly 'stable' (lenny or squeeze or whatever) with a handful of selected packages from testing or sid or experimental. just point /etc/apt/sources.list at squeeze in some nearby debian mirror, then run apt-get update apt-get -d -u install amanda-client that will download ONLY amanda-client plus whatever upgraded libraries etc it needs (and possibly updates to other packages). if you're happy with what it downloaded, then go ahead and install it: apt-get install amanda-client remember to comment out the squeeze line in sources.list after you've installed the new amanda-client. or learn how apt's pinning feature works, you can configure apt to use both lenny and squeeze (and/or any other debian version including testing, sid, and experimental) but install only packages from lenny by default. you could then install newer versions with something like: apt-get -t squeeze install amanda-client or apt-get -t wheezy install amanda-client BTW, the thing a lot of people don't realise about debian is that the version of debian itself is mostly irrelevant. What matters is the versions of the specific packages you have installed. craig -- craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au> BOFH excuse #414: tachyon emissions overloading the system
On 08/12/11 11:15, Craig Sanders wrote:
On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 10:06:31AM +1100, Andrew Worsley wrote:
Can some one explain - Why is this not released ?
it was in sid and in testing over 2 years ago. but it got upgraded multiple times by the time squeeze was released, so squeeze ended up with 2.6.1p2-3
Just to emphasize it even more: "Fixed in version amanda/1:2.5.2p1-5" implies that it is also fixed in all versions newer than that. Others have already pointed out that it is in the nature of Debian's release cycle that you don't get amanda/1:2.5.2p1-5 (or any other newer version) into Lenny after its release unless it is security critical. Given you have only 2 months of security support left for Lenny, I recommend upgrading to Squeeze rather than any other approach. Regards, -- .''`. Philipp Huebner <debalance@debian.org> : :' : pgp fp: 6719 25C5 B8CD E74A 5225 3DF9 E5CA 8C49 25E4 205F `. `'` HP: http://www.debalance.de, Skype: philipp-huebner `- ICQ: 235-524-440, Jabber: der_schakal@jabber.org
participants (11)
-
Andrew Worsley -
Craig Sanders -
Glenn McIntosh -
Jason White -
Marcus Furlong -
Mike O'Connor -
Mike O'Connor -
Philipp Huebner -
Russell Coker -
Toby Corkindale -
Trent W. Buck