All schools are (being forced) to use ipads as of the start of the new curriculum. It is specified in the upcoming documentation. In some major schools IT is no longer a subject and the new curriculum has it removed. Maybe Linux can get a simple to install and use file transfer app working as quickly as possible.

On 19/11/12 10:16, Peter Ross wrote:

...

Hi,

my daughter has a new iPad now, it is a requirement at the college she goes.

Great, that fossil does not even know what to to with a USB stick? Any workarounds?

I guess I could put the data on the Linux side under a webserver's root. Other ways? Does Apple still supports Apple File Server (would be netatalk on the Linux side?) It's easy. You transfer data onto the ipad by purchasing things via the Market app.

More seriously -- I think you can transfer files by connecting it to an Apple laptop running iTunes and then pairing them up. (ie. You can transfer more than just music)

Alternatively, have you tried some of the ipod-compatible Linux tools? They might work with the ipad too.

The internet at large seems to suggest installing an app on the ipad which enables WebDAV, which you can then mount on your linux box via fuse, nautilus, etc.

-T _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main

Hi Get the app good reader from the App Store. It costs a couple of dollars and allows many different methods of transfer include via web browser. Gordon Sent from my iPhone On 19/11/2012, at 11:19 AM, Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> wrote:

Roger <arelem@bigpond.com> wrote:

...

All schools are (being forced) to use ipads as of the start of the new curriculum. It is specified in the upcoming documentation.

I hope it isn't as strict as that: there shouldn't be a mandate to use a particular vendor's products.

...

Maybe Linux can get a simple to install and use file transfer app working as quickly as possible.

That wouldn't address the larger issue though.

I would expect renewed attempts by both Apple and Microsoft to gain exclusive access to elements of the educational market. Google might likewise enter this game; Linux less so, although some of its corporate supporters (e.g., Red Hat) have in the past promoted it in educational settings, albeit to a limited degree and certainly not in a widespread fashion.

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Roger <arelem@bigpond.com> wrote:

Students have to have wads of money to install all the apps on top of every other school cost. There will never be a final list of apps and that's it, it will be ongoing, as will the purchase of the next ipad, through the 6-10 years of school.

From what I understand so far, there may be 20 -30 apps as a minimum needed per student, or the school has to provide the apps which for say 3000 students works out at $6000 minimum per app. One school of that size has baulked at spending tens of thousands of dollars on apps and savvy students do not seem to like the ipad for school work.

The OLPC project solved the software delivery problem years ago. As I understand it, they use a central school server, which of course in many of their deployments can be expected to have little, if any, Internet access. They also use IP multicast to deliver system upgrades to many machines simultaneously within a school setting. Their next device is tablet-style, as I recall. Another solution would be remote mounting of file systems from a central server, for which again there is precedent in the Linux world. None of this solves the charging problem and I'm not sure how OLPC do so. There are various options, however, with solar being among the most effective if my memory of the most recent OLPC talk I attended is accurate.

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012, Roger <arelem@bigpond.com> wrote:

Apparently one of the problems for schools that I know of, quite apart from the high cost of purchase of the ipad, are the apps. It's never just one app, losts are needed.

Students have to have wads of money to install all the apps on top of every other school cost. There will never be a final list of apps and that's it, it will be ongoing, as will the purchase of the next ipad, through the 6-10 years of school.

http://etbe.coker.com.au/2011/03/14/effective-computers-schools/ You are making many assumtions that I don't think are correct. You assume that the apps are commercial and expensive, they can be FOSS and commercial apps can have site licenses. You assume that many apps are needed but even if you just had a good eBook reader and some free text books that could make a real difference, I've written about some of these issues at the above URL. As for purchasing another iPad, they should last at least 3 years and that will drop the price down to something less than $150 per annum. A sensible use of electronic text books could easily save more than that. Parents could probably save $50 on year 11 and 12 expenses by just getting electronic versions of Shakespeare alone!

From what I understand so far, there may be 20 -30 apps as a minimum needed per student,

Why?

or the school has to provide the apps which for say 3000 students works out at $6000 minimum per app. One school of that size has baulked at spending tens of thousands of dollars on apps and savvy students do not seem to like the ipad for school work.

If there's a real need for an app then there's nothing stopping the government from getting a license for all schools and saving money in the process. Also the education department could just hire programmers to write the apps.

Does an ipad run all day without recharging? Schools cannot provide charging or power leads to each desk or recharge facilities for massive numbers of ipads at lunchtimes.

A new iPad will last all day, older ones might not but probably few students will be using one all the time anyway. A typical classroom will have at least 3 double power points. If it became common for students to have older iPads that don't last then it would just be a matter of having the students who need their iPad charged sitting near the power points, it seems unlikely that there would be a need to have more than 6 iPads being charged at once. If one of the cheaper Android tablets was chosen then battery life would be shorter. But it wouldn't be difficult to just install more power points in classrooms and arrange desks so that there's no OH&S issue of charging cables going across open floor. These are all problems that can be solved. Solving them will be reasonably cheap when compared to the costs of paper text books. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/

Michael Lindner writes:

iOS has many benefits, enjoy them! Easy access to it's internals, however, is not one of them.

"It's a really COMFY straight-jacket..."

Forgot to mention the USB adapter: http://store.apple.com/au/product/MC531ZM/A/apple-ipad-camera-connection-kit mike. http://mikelindner.wordpress.com

Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:

If one of the cheaper Android tablets was chosen then battery life would be shorter. But it wouldn't be difficult to just install more power points in classrooms and arrange desks so that there's no OH&S issue of charging cables going across open floor.

Yes, and an eight-point power board, for example, would meet the need.

These are all problems that can be solved. Solving them will be reasonably cheap when compared to the costs of paper text books.

Even when the hardware costs are included?

Tony Langdon writes:

Also, what happens if the kids have been doing something outside or requiring moving around and they forget to plug in?

You're also going to have significant numbers of destroyed devices because kids throw their packs in the corner, sit on them, etc.

Peter Ross wrote:

...

You're also going to have significant numbers of destroyed devices because kids throw their packs in the corner, sit on them, etc.

I am not really poor but not that rich that my kids get two iPads per year - so I teach them a bit about the value of things.

Sure, but I was also thinking of when Fatty Johnson chucks your bag on the roof or on the train tracks for a laugh. IME that happens *more* in bogan communities.

The government has an education allowance for people in need, and there are charities as The Smith Family.

I bet the 1%ers would kick up a stink if austudy ended up paying for ipads instead of rent and food.

Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> writes:

As for purchasing another iPad, they should last at least 3 years and that will drop the price down to something less than $150 per annum. A sensible use of electronic text books could easily save more than that. Parents could probably save $50 on year 11 and 12 expenses by just getting electronic versions of Shakespeare alone!

I dunno about privileged upper-middle-class Victorians, but I spent most of my time in .wa.au state schools, and IIRC[0] a $150/ann increase in school fees would have caused a riot. Plenty of students there were in third-hand uniforms and IIRC the textbooks were all owned by the school and borrowed by each class for the year. A lot of those textbooks were a couple of decades old, too -- I doubt hand-me-down tablets would last that long. So OK, assuming students have power at home (probably reasonable), an ebook reader might be cost effective because you can study at night after the library closes, without having to cart dead trees back and forth, and with access to content that would otherwise require a trip to the state library. I'm all for making that option available to people -- that's no different from taking extra math classes after school at the local uni. But requiring it is Not Cool, and that goes double for requiring a specific vendor. (When I'm ranting about vendor lock-in to people like the ATO, this is where I also point out that the vendor is not Australian, and therefore they're also serving foreign interests.) [0] I may be off by an order of magnitude... nobody bothered to tell me how much was being spent on my education.

A new iPad will last all day, older ones might not but probably few students will be using one all the time anyway. A typical classroom will have at least 3 double power points. If it became common for students to have older iPads that don't last then it would just be a matter of having the students who need their iPad charged sitting near the power points, it seems unlikely that there would be a need to have more than 6 iPads being charged at once.

So now you have students playing musical chairs during a lesson because the lesson requires an ipad, and their (personalized) ipad is out of juice? Sounds pretty disruptive. (Though I think that's mostly a non-issue, as we agree recent equipment ought to last all day, and students probably have access to power at home.)

If one of the cheaper Android tablets was chosen then battery life would be shorter. But it wouldn't be difficult to just install more power points in classrooms and arrange desks so that there's no OH&S issue of charging cables going across open floor.

I suspect it would still be an issue in home ec and science labs, at least -- lots of conductive liquids being spilled everywhere...

These are all problems that can be solved. Solving them will be reasonably cheap when compared to the costs of paper text books.

Are you assuming every student buys every textbook, and throws it away at the end of the year?

There aren't enough powerpoints at home so I couldn't charge it... My dog ate my charger... Bianca - on my phone, please excuse my brevity. On Nov 20, 2012 11:16 AM, "Brian May" <brian@microcomaustralia.com.au> wrote:

On 20 November 2012 09:23, Trent W. Buck <trentbuck@gmail.com> wrote:

...

(Though I think that's mostly a non-issue, as we agree recent equipment ought to last all day, and students probably have access to power at home.)

"I couldn't charge it last night because I was at my friends house and forgot my charger. There was a power failure the previous night. I forgot to charge it the night before that, and now it is dead flat. Can I go home now?"

(as a simple "My dog ate my homework" won't work any more :-) ) -- Brian May <brian@microcomaustralia.com.au> _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012, "Trent W. Buck" <trentbuck@gmail.com> wrote:

Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> writes:

...

As for purchasing another iPad, they should last at least 3 years and that will drop the price down to something less than $150 per annum. A sensible use of electronic text books could easily save more than that. Parents could probably save $50 on year 11 and 12 expenses by just getting electronic versions of Shakespeare alone!

I dunno about privileged upper-middle-class Victorians, but I spent most of my time in .wa.au state schools, and IIRC[0] a $150/ann increase in school fees would have caused a riot.

Of course there are cheaper options. The list retail price for Android tablets is well under $200 and a bulk order could probably get it below $100. That would make it about $33 per annum if the kids can refrain from breaking them.

So OK, assuming students have power at home (probably reasonable), an ebook reader might be cost effective because you can study at night after the library closes, without having to cart dead trees back and forth, and with access to content that would otherwise require a trip to the state library.

http://etbe.coker.com.au/2008/05/24/school-bag-weight/ Yes, I've blogged about this in the past. According to my calculations most high school students are at risk of back injury due to the weight of their school bag. As tablets weigh less than text books (the Nexus 10 is lighter than a year 12 text book and smaller tablets are lighter still) and ebook readers are even lighter than tablets it's clear that there are significant benefits to be gained from using electronic texts.

...

A new iPad will last all day, older ones might not but probably few students will be using one all the time anyway. A typical classroom will have at least 3 double power points. If it became common for students to have older iPads that don't last then it would just be a matter of having the students who need their iPad charged sitting near the power points, it seems unlikely that there would be a need to have more than 6 iPads being charged at once.

So now you have students playing musical chairs during a lesson because the lesson requires an ipad, and their (personalized) ipad is out of juice? Sounds pretty disruptive.

I'm sure that when schools migrated from an ink well per desk to personalised ball-point pens they had similar discussions. But things got sorted out and students manage to bring working pens and pencils to class.

...

If one of the cheaper Android tablets was chosen then battery life would be shorter. But it wouldn't be difficult to just install more power points in classrooms and arrange desks so that there's no OH&S issue of charging cables going across open floor.

I suspect it would still be an issue in home ec and science labs, at least -- lots of conductive liquids being spilled everywhere...

Is "Home ec" a real subject? When I was at school it was one subject where they dropped the pretence that it was anything other than child-minding. As for science labs, I presume that they have solved such problems in real laboratories and presumably the same solution can be applied in school (whether it's safe use of tablets or just using paper). If we are going to maintain the illusion that school is teaching skills that are relevant to work then we should be able to have schools implement practices that work in a commercial environment.

...

These are all problems that can be solved. Solving them will be reasonably cheap when compared to the costs of paper text books.

Are you assuming every student buys every textbook, and throws it away at the end of the year?

It has been claimed that careful students can buy second hand books and keep them in good enough condition to sell them for the same price. Presumably such careful students can make their tablet last for a long time and also have a low effective cost. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012, Trent W. Buck wrote:

Don't forget the tablet will need a new liion battery every three years

Is that true? I had a netbook from 2006 to 2009 (until it was stolen) and have a netbook since - makes it both 3 years each. Until now I did not notice signs of fatigue. Regards Peter

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012, "Trent W. Buck" <trentbuck@gmail.com> wrote:

English lit, now that is a subject that's pure child-minding. Should go back to teaching rhetoric and grammar.

The subject "English" should be about blogging, email, twitter, SMS, and writing technical documents - with probably about that order of importance.

...

If we are going to maintain the illusion that school is teaching skills that are relevant to work then we should be able to have schools implement practices that work in a commercial environment.

So... how to spend all day on facebook while pretending to use word? They cover that in the "IT" classes.

True.

It's a lot harder to smash a textbook than a tablet. Don't forget the tablet will need a new liion battery every three years, even if it's well-treated.

Part of the issue of Li-Ion battery life depends on how fully it is charged and how fully it is discharged. Phones are benchmarked on how long the battery lasts when new so there's a real incentive to fully discharge the battery even if it means that you need a new one in a couple of years. With tablets there is less of an incentive to do that so the device can be optimised for batteries that have less need for replacement. http://www.mugen-power-batteries.com/ Mugen sells replacement phone batteries for as little as $30. So replacing a battery after 3 years won't be an insurmountable problem, although you might not want to spend $40 on a new battery for a 3yo tablet that cost $150 new. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/

On 20/11/12 16:49, Russell Coker wrote:

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012, "Trent W. Buck" <trentbuck@gmail.com> wrote:

...

English lit, now that is a subject that's pure child-minding. Should go back to teaching rhetoric and grammar. The subject "English" should be about blogging, email, twitter, SMS, and writing technical documents - with probably about that order of importance.

...

...

If we are going to maintain the illusion that school is teaching skills that are relevant to work then we should be able to have schools implement practices that work in a commercial environment. So... how to spend all day on facebook while pretending to use word? They cover that in the "IT" classes. True.

Except, as I understand the changes to the Australian curriculum from day one next year, IT is no longer a subject. It is/was is so dumbed down that most kids have been doing the subject matter as part of their social life. School just rehashes what they know, teachers are behind the times by 5 years or more and the average to brighter kids are bored out of their brains. From next year, every teacher from sport, English, math and science and social sciences will have to teach IT. History is now history of Asia and aborigines, not history of Australia. They're not even maintaining the illusion. Grammar is off the table as is spelling.

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012, Roger wrote:

Apparently one of the problems for schools that I know of, quite apart from the high cost of purchase of the ipad, are the apps. It's never just one app, losts are needed.

Students have to have wads of money to install all the apps on top of every other school cost. There will never be a final list of apps and that's it, it will be ongoing, as will the purchase of the next ipad, through the 6-10 years of school.

From what I understand so far, there may be 20 -30 apps as a minimum needed per student, or the school has to provide the apps which for say 3000 students works out at $6000 minimum per app. One school of that size has baulked at spending tens of thousands of dollars on apps and savvy students do not seem to like the ipad for school work.

If the average price is three dollars you have to pay up to $90 per year, or $7.50 per month. I just paid the mandatory school fees. It's $1020 per year, for a public school, to give it some perspective. Regards Peter

Peter Ross <Peter.Ross@bogen.in-berlin.de> wrote:

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012, Roger wrote:

...

Maybe Linux can get a simple to install and use file transfer app working as quickly as possible.

http://www.libimobiledevice.org seems to do that.

and it's ready for installation from your local debian repository; I don't know the status of other distributions.

On 19/11/12 11:24, Peter Ross wrote:

I wonder how to make a tiny device running Linux that can - be a Wifi hotspot - Provides mobile connection - has USB so it can export a USB stick

Is there anything that is cheap and fits into a pocket?

Raspberry Pi with a USB hub, 3G modem and wifi adapter? cheers, Chris -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC

On 19/11/12 13:47, Matthew Cengia wrote:

Cheap-ish wireless router running OpenWRT with a pair of USB ports (or single port plus hub) and a 3G modem? I've seen that done before. Not sure how tiny you're thinking of.

Peter wrote: # cheap and fits into a pocket cheers, Chris -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC

FWIW, when I transferred to Carey BGS for matriculation, back in 2000, they said I had to have a craptop. It was bullshit, I never had any legitimte need for it; all the IB textbooks were in dead tree format. It just added another five kilos to the already hefty backpack weight. On the plus side, it meant I had a computer of my very own to blow away Windows and install Linux on, so I guess the silver lining is it helped me break into FOSS. Good luck doing that on a fucking ipad...

Oh, there's always DropBox and Evernote. They play nice. mike. http://mikelindner.wordpress.com On 19/11/12 15:39, Brent Wallis wrote:

Gday,

I have had quite reasonable success in a business context with this iPad app:

http://istorageapp.com/ (6 odd bucks US.) and an sftp server, Linux of course.

A chrooted SFTP server is a trivial setup in Linux. We provde that via our DC "almost " cloud infra and it just works. It's a business oriented "private" dropbox style utility.

Setting that up on a cheap AWS instance would be very cost effective I would think. But you could just keep it in house if being able to get to it from anywhere was not a need.

We provide this service for a number of clients...very easy to maintain but will admit that the app did have it's "moments" earlier in the year. All looks AOK now though. On later iPad versions its very stable and we generally do not spend more than seconds a day in maintenance for around 200-220 users from various clients.

HTH BW

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Peter Ross <Peter.Ross@bogen.in-berlin.de <mailto:Peter.Ross@bogen.in-berlin.de>> wrote:

Hi,

my daughter has a new iPad now, it is a requirement at the college she goes.

Great, that fossil does not even know what to to with a USB stick? Any workarounds?

I guess I could put the data on the Linux side under a webserver's root. Other ways? Does Apple still supports Apple File Server (would be netatalk on the Linux side?)

I really hate computers that are just made with $$ in the eyes, without any intention to provide a good product to the customers.

Compared to the iPad, the Android based ZaTab is much friendlier to its environment.

A fortnight ago I had four kids, aged 9 to 12, at home. The played using three tablets (2 ZaTabs, 1 iPad) and they did not care at all which brand it was - it looked so similar they did not notice.

Regards Peter _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au <mailto:luv-main@luv.asn.au> http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main

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Hi, On Mon, 19 Nov 2012, Jobst Schmalenbach wrote:

what about google (drive/docs) and/or dropbox?

This solution needs Internet access, and the iPad is WiFi only (to avoid costly surprises via bill) So I would prefer local solutions (the other point is privacy and education of its value by example) On Mon, 19 Nov 2012, Brent Wallis wrote,

I have had quite reasonable success in a business context  with this iPad app:

http://istorageapp.com/

That sounds good. I also found this: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/air-sharing/id289943355?mt=8 It supports SFTP as well. Any experience with this? Regards Peter